When did Cao Cao changes his mind?

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When did Cao Cao changes his mind?

Unread postby Peter » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:26 am

Hiya to all: readers of SGYY wil always be reminded by the name of Cao Cao. "Talent governer and cunning hero in chaos". However upon an close inspection of Cao Cao, you will find bit of controvercies about him.

Cao Cao's life history and carrer will not be retyped again (it's accessable to reader in Ko-net).

In my own opinion: Cao Cao appeared to be quite a devoter to Han in his early carrer (I am following the track of SGYY). Fighting the Yellow turbans, attempt to assinate Dong Zhong and gone so far as forging emperial edict....

I am not arguing that Cao is a righterous man, from his behaviors it's quite evident that he is a man who is hungry for power, but in ancient China. The form of power can be seen in various degrees. You can be powerful like He Jin, serving as high position in the Han or you can attempt to be an emperor for yourself. However the history and cultural expectation of that time, unless a kingdom is doomed beyound all possible ways to restore. The subjests of such Kingdom should be remain royal to it (similar theme also observed in medieval cultural but Chinese tend to have much less individualization as today).

So, I believe Cao Cao was not aiming for the thone in begging of his carrer to become an emperor himself but to achieve a high status and postion with the Han government, when did he changes his mind to establish Cao as next dynasty?

so, in your opinion, what possible factors made Cao Cao to switch his mind?
Last edited by Peter on Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When did Cao Cao changes his mind?

Unread postby Morg » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:03 pm

p wrote:So, I believe Cao Cao was not aiming for the thone in begging of his carrer to become an emperor himself but to achieve a high status and postion with the Han government, when did he changes his mind to establish Cao as next dynasty?


I don't think Cao Cao was looking for high status within the Han, I think he was opportunist who knew he wanted high status but didn't have a specific plan. I think he took opportunities as they arose and went with the flow.

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Well...

Unread postby Peter » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:15 pm

Morg, I pharse wrongly, I mean to say Cao Cao was a power hungry man who's original aim is to increase his power though already estabulished Han dynasty (please note, my assumption is base on things Cao Cao does in SGYY, a novel, so acurracy might to off to certain extend). If Cao Cao is what you suggested as a aimless opportunist, he could have become an independent when yellow rebellion broke out just like many other government officials. He could have stay at Dong Zhong's side and wrack havoc toward any oppositions (once again, this assumption might be too bold :lol: ). But it's when Cao Cao recieve the Han empeorer and start to use him as "figure head" as suppose be a Han royalist.
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Unread postby Morg » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:58 am

I'm going by SGYY too :)

I think Cao Cao was clever enough to know that he wasn't strong enough to go independant as Sun Jian, Yuan Shao and Dong Zhuo both had very big armies and Cao Cao would have been another small independant force. By "staying loyal to the Han" he was able to manipulate events in his own favour (like forming the anti-Dong Zhuo alliance) so that his chances of achieving a higher status would improve. If he had broken out early, then he would have been conquered quickly.By "staying loyal" to the emperor, he was able to take down Dong Zhuo and then raise an army big enough to go against Yuan Shao.

Cao Cao had no real claim to be in a position of power, Yaun Shao was from a royal background, Sun Jian had possesion of the emperor's seal, Liu Bei had ancestry on his side, but Cao Cao had none of these. He would have been seen as a tyrant who was trying to conquer the land for his own selfish means (like Dong Zhuo was seen). By allying himself with the emperor, he received the legitimacy that he needed and was able to form his own kingdom on the pretense that he was doing the emperor's bidding.

Clever people who want power generally know that the best strategy is to sit back and wait for opportunities to arise.

Just my thoughts :)

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Thx Morg

Unread postby Peter » Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:39 pm

Ha, now when you went into further, your interpertation actually is much better than my own. In your second paragraph about Yaun Shao, did he actually have royal blood or you meant to say his come from distinct royal family? Lui Bei (his name always give me dreadful headche!), actually he is related to an Emperor of West Han (aka. first Han), but people like that actually is questionable about scuceding the throne. Any way Morg, so you believe Cao Cao did not have faintest desire to protect Han in his early carrer? :wink:
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Re: Thx Morg

Unread postby Morg » Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:14 pm

p wrote:Ha, now when you went into further, your interpertation actually is much better than my own.


I don't know about that, it's all open to speculation :)



In your second paragraph about Yaun Shao, did he actually have royal blood or you meant to say his come from distinct royal family?


I meant distinct royal family, I couldn't think of the right words. It should have read "Yuan Shao was from a noble background" :)




Lui Bei (his name always give me dreadful headche!),


Why's that?



actually he is related to an Emperor of West Han (aka. first Han), but people like that actually is questionable about scuceding the throne.


It was definitely questionable, but he used his ancestry a lot to justify what he did. He also said that he was given a command to hunt down all rebels against the Han, which again gave him a little credibility. If he hadn't used either reason, then Shu would have been just another rebel force against the Han.



Any way Morg, so you believe Cao Cao did not have faintest desire to protect Han in his early carrer? :wink:


I think he did have some desire to protect the Han, but only as long as it benefitted him. By protecting the Han initially, if the Han were restored in the early going then Cao Cao would have probably gotten more status and power for his acts in protecting the dynasty. As time went along it became clear that the Han were finished so Cao Cao used every opportunity he could to ensure that he would be able to form his own kingdom and eventually his own dynasty.

Cao Cao seemed to simply want power and great status, so I think he would have done whatever it took to get it. :D

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Unread postby Lord_Kongming » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:51 pm

Morg wrote:He would have been seen as a tyrant who was trying to conquer the land for his own selfish means (like Dong Zhuo was seen).


Dong Zhuo was a tyrant. He burned LuoYang and looted all the houses and then he had freakin lu bu dig up the emperors grave. How can you say he was just SEEN as a tyrant because he is the definition.

Liu Beis name is disgusting yet also beautiful (came out wrong) at the same time. He doesn't like it because Liu Bei used his ancestry to justify stuff thats just plain wrong.

What made Cao Cao change his mind? It was always in his mind after he became pm. He slowly layed the foundation, stripping power from the emperor and anyone else he could until he died and Cao Pi would take the throne so he wouldnt look like a usurper. In the end Cao Cao if you use the first Cao as a verb means manipulative little deceiver and I think he did just that, he deceived his people of the Han and they thought Cao Pi was the usurper and really he was.
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the way in the world...

Unread postby Peter » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:28 pm

Morg the reason Lui Bei was not my desirable type of man is the way he manipulate the people around. As the the heading of this The way in the world. title suggest. I suppose this is the way that people survive, with Cao Cao, though difficult, you can still speculate a bit from the history to acess the possible reasons behind his want of power, but Lui Bei is whole other matter (to me, anyway). I always have troubles to identify his motives behind all the actions (ie. Lui Bei's attitude if put in morden way, he would not say a word about what he wants until some one put in front of him). ((note: my personal interptation only, not meant to anger Lui Bei fans or try to enlist another arugement). :)

Lord_Kongming Cao Cao is some what pitiful to me after he made his mind to start weaken the authority and power of the emperor :( . while he wish to be seen as a never before seen royalist (from his poem which compare himself to Zhong Gon ((Duke of Zhong of Zhong dynasty, a talented and loyalist to his country))) and on the other hand, Cao Cao is so sensitive to criticism and mockery (many politicians have been stripped their power).

to me, it is just a fantasy, if Cao Cao stayed royal to Han, what peaceful world could his possible create? (nay, just a fantasy... :lol: ).
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Re: the way in the world...

Unread postby Morg » Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:48 am

Lord_Kongming wrote:Dong Zhuo was a tyrant. He burned LuoYang and looted all the houses and then he had freakin lu bu dig up the emperors grave. How can you say he was just SEEN as a tyrant because he is the definition.


I don't think it's that simple. Dong Zhuo did not have any claim of legitimacy like the others which means that he was seen as being a usurper. As you said, Liu Bei used ancestry to justify his actions, Dong Zhuo had no such excuse. When you consider that history is written by the winner, it is entirely possible that a lot of his acts were invented to justify taking him down. I'm not saying that he didn't do those things, just that I'm a little suspicious :) SGZ was slanted towards Wei a little and SGYY made a hero of Liu Bei after all....







p wrote:Morg the reason Lui Bei was not my desirable type of man is the way he manipulate the people around. As the the heading of this The way in the world. title suggest. I suppose this is the way that people survive, with Cao Cao, though difficult, you can still speculate a bit from the history to acess the possible reasons behind his want of power, but Lui Bei is whole other matter (to me, anyway). I always have troubles to identify his motives behind all the actions (ie. Lui Bei's attitude if put in morden way, he would not say a word about what he wants until some one put in front of him). ((note: my personal interptation only, not meant to anger Lui Bei fans or try to enlist another arugement). :)


Heh, nah it's cool :) I really liked Liu Bei when I played DW and then read bits of SGYY, but the more I read of SGYY the less I like him. I think the problem is that when SGYY was written, one kingdom needed to be a hero (every good book has a hero and villain) but the times were not that simple. No-one in the Three Kingdoms era was a hero really, they all slaughtered people in order to gain more power or reputation....real life is shades of grey.

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Re: the way in the world...

Unread postby Lord_Kongming » Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:58 pm

Morg wrote:
Lord_Kongming wrote:Dong Zhuo was a tyrant. He burned LuoYang and looted all the houses and then he had freakin lu bu dig up the emperors grave. How can you say he was just SEEN as a tyrant because he is the definition.


I don't think it's that simple. Dong Zhuo did not have any claim of legitimacy like the others which means that he was seen as being a usurper. As you said, Liu Bei used ancestry to justify his actions, Dong Zhuo had no such excuse.
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It is that simple Morg. He was a tyrant, Cao Cao had no claim of legitimacy either, so hes a tyrant also I guess? Liu Bei was just as bad.
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