Was Zhuge Liang for Han?

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Was Zhuge Liang for Han?

Unread postby Starscream » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:00 am

Just a question which I feel is pretty not-obvious and debatable to a certain extent. We know that Zhuge Liang served Liu Bei, the distant imperial uncle of the Han emperor, but at the same time, Zhuge Liang supported Liu Bei to the throne of Shu-Han and also congratulated Sun Quan when he declared himself to be Wu Da Di. So was Zhuge Liang loyal to Han? Another question: If Zhuge Liang had joined Cao Cao and he was assumed to be loyal to Han, would he share the fate of Xun Yu? :roll:
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Re: Was Zhuge Liang for Han?

Unread postby GuangRong » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:42 am

Cai Yan wrote:Just a question which I feel is pretty not-obvious and debatable to a certain extent. We know that Zhuge Liang served Liu Bei, the distant imperial uncle of the Han emperor, but at the same time, Zhuge Liang supported Liu Bei to the throne of Shu-Han and also congratulated Sun Quan when he declared himself to be Wu Da Di. So was Zhuge Liang loyal to Han? Another question: If Zhuge Liang had joined Cao Cao and he was assumed to be loyal to Han, would he share the fate of Xun Yu? :roll:



It's obvious his loyalty is to Liu bei first and foremost , and by extention anything he stands for.

And as to why he choose Liu Bei in the first place , that's another matter.

Since Zhuge Liang knows when to keep his mouth shut , and see the boss's face when giving his opinion, he'll lived to a ripe old age .... :lol:
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Unread postby Kublai Khan » Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:51 am

I agree with that. I think living as a hermit, he was impressed by Liu Bei and had undying loyalty for him, but I don't think he had any concerns for the Han. I think he pretty much only cared about Liu Bei and since Liu Bei loved the Han, he just went along with him.

Wasn't it Zhuge that talked Liu into naming himeself emperor? That wouldn't be a sign that he cared for the emperor or the empire.
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Unread postby Skyeye Amon Ra » Mon Jun 30, 2003 3:38 pm

He was only loyal to Liu Bei. Besides the Hans were pretty much stamped out by the time he came out of his hermitage.
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Re: Was Zhuge Liang for Han?

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:02 pm

Cai Yan wrote:Just a question which I feel is pretty not-obvious and debatable to a certain extent. We know that Zhuge Liang served Liu Bei, the distant imperial uncle of the Han emperor, but at the same time, Zhuge Liang supported Liu Bei to the throne of Shu-Han and also congratulated Sun Quan when he declared himself to be Wu Da Di. So was Zhuge Liang loyal to Han? Another question: If Zhuge Liang had joined Cao Cao and he was assumed to be loyal to Han, would he share the fate of Xun Yu? :roll:


I think it depends on whether or not you think Liu Bei was loyal to Han and that has been debated a lot. Personally, I think he was. Zhuge Liang congratulating Sun Quan may have been an effort at maintaining the vital Shu-Wu alliance. As for your second question, I would hope not. Poor Xun Yu. :cry: I do agree with GuangRong in that Zhuge Liang did know when to keep quiet and was a good perceiver of people's feelings and tendencies.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:23 pm

I don't think Zhuge Liang was loyal to the Han. If he was, he would work for Cao Cao. Though I do agree that congratulating Sun Quan to be emperor was just to help the Shu/Wu alliance.

Also, I don't think Zhuge Liang would ever die like Xun Yu. Kongming isn't that honorable.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:08 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:I don't think Zhuge Liang was loyal to the Han. If he was, he would work for Cao Cao. Though I do agree that congratulating Sun Quan to be emperor was just to help the Shu/Wu alliance.
Also, I don't think Zhuge Liang would ever die like Xun Yu. Kongming isn't that honorable.


It's debatable if Cao Cao was loyal to the Han as well. :lol: And if Cao Cao forces you to commit suicide, you really have no choice. :evil: I think Kongming was honorable. :D
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Unread postby Lord_Kongming » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:29 pm

What was Xun Yu's fate? I've read the book and all but I don't remember. From what I see here he was forced into suicide? HOW? Cao Cao gets evil an eviler to 2nd evilist (Dong Zhuo has 1st)!
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Unread postby Lance » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:31 pm

Cao Cao didn't care about the Han, he just wanted to get power for himself, and, with that power, bring peace to the land. The only reason he didn't declare himself Emperor was because it wouldn't benefit him at all, as he was already as powerful as he was going to get. I think Cao Pi deSeated Liu Xie because he wanted to set himself apart and he saw more power where there wasn't any. As for ZGL, he wasn't loyal to the Han, he was loyal to Liu Bei, and Liu Bei's stated cause just so happened to be that he wanted to save the Han. Personally, I think Ma Teng and Yuan Shao were the closest things to loyal ministers during this period..
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Unread postby Lord_Kongming » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:37 pm

Lance, Don't you know that Ma Teng served Cao Cao? Cao cao executed him because Ma Chao rebelled and then when Chao failed he went to Liu Bei and surrended though he never was an ally or enemy. As for Yuan Shao, I bet he was loyal, but he was torn between advisors. Had he won against Cao Cao at Guan Du and he absorbed Cao Cao, do you really think he would've turned it over to the Han government? I don't. Even if he didnt by that time he would be dead or killed by his sons and then they would rise up and take the Han. Yuan Shao was loyal. But if he had power, it would be a different sad story for the Han.

As for ZL, I do think he was loyal to Liu Bei, he would have no shred of loyalty to the Han if it weren't for Liu Bei. But even though his master wanted the Hans restoration he knew it was a lost cause. ZGL was not loyal to the Han in my eyes, he was just trying to keep Shu from being swallowed by the Cao Destruction train.
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