Ma Chao!

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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm not a fan, he took control of area's quickly when he did strike and had some success against Wei so he was alright but not much more then that. I prefer Yan Xing :P


Yan Xing has one exlpoit, that I know of, which is dueling Ma Chao and nearly killing him. After that, he tells his father to rebel, and then rebels when Han Sui disagrees. Once he rebels, he gets his butt handed to him, and runs off to Cao Cao where he accomplishes nothing.

Ma Chao, at least, had a number of military successes, and had far more impact on the region than Yan Xing could ever hope to have. Yan Xing was also only thinking of himself, while Han Sui and Ma Chao had to also thing of the Qiang and their connections.

Yan Xing, though, is an interesting character. I would love to learn more about him.
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Re: Ma Chao!

Unread postby Ricky » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:15 pm

depressed soul wrote:This guy was an ok officer in my opinion...but some of you call him useless and some of you call him great...give your reasons why


Ma Chao why?

Warning if you like Ma Chao ignore this post

1. Ma Chao is a worthless general who could not get far in life. Only DW and the novel make him as strong as Zhao Yun.

2. In actual history he was an incompetent person, who only most of the time looked out for himself.

3. He gathered and assembled Qiangs only to later betray them, he betrayed his own men and sought refuge to protect himself.

4. Liu Bei did not ask like in Dyansty Warriors; ''Oh Ma Chao please join us, and create a new world.'' Ma Chao went on to ask him.

5. He had not done anything great to earn the title ''Tiger General.'' At least the rest did something in their time with Liu Bei.

I could keep going, but I proved my point on him well enough.
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Re: Ma Chao!

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:04 pm

Ricky wrote:I could keep going, but I proved my point on him well enough.


Though I agree with your points, you didn't prove them -- you just stated them. I can think of a few quotations to back them up, but I'm too lazy to.
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Re: Ma Chao!

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:19 am

Ricky wrote:1. Ma Chao is a worthless general who could not get far in life. Only DW and the novel make him as strong as Zhao Yun.


Who's comparing him to Zhao Yun?

Secondly? Ma Chao went from being the son of a leader of a powerful force to that force's leading general. From there, he became the main force keeping Cao Cao at bay during Tong Gate. After this, he was a thorn in Cao Cao's side. After this, one of the highest ranking generals in Liu Bei's army.

Whether you consider him able or unable, you can't say, with any confidence, that he could not get far in life. Because he did. Worthlessness, as well, is in the eye of the naysayer. I find it a generally crude term that fits those who truly didn't have an impact on history, not those who actually did something.

Ricky wrote:2. In actual history he was an incompetent person, who only most of the time looked out for himself.


In the beginning, he looked out for his father's alliances, fighting for Cao Cao against Yuan Shao. Later, he fought for the Qiang when shown Cao Cao'd military forces growing in Chang An. Afterwards, he fought for lost territory. Only after this did he start abandoning people and fighting for his own gain. Even if you disagree with what I've just said, all you can put forth is just as much assumption as what I've put forth is. Honestly, we can't know that he only looked out for himself since he almost always had responsibility over more than the average officer.

Ricky wrote:3. He gathered and assembled the Qiang only to later betray them, he betrayed his own men and sought refuge to protect himself.


He didn't gather anyone. Ma Teng and Han Sui gathered the Qiang. Ma Chao inherited the responsibility of commanding them. During Tong Gate, it was Han Sui who gathered them. Afterwards, The Qiang abandoned them. Their loss at Tong Gate led to them turning their backs, which left Han Sui and Ma Chao with only their personal forces. Ma Chao also constantly attacked risky positions for the sake of putting a dent in Xiahou Yuan's holding. If he only sought refuge to protect himself, why was it that his men stopped fighting, forcing Ma Chao to abandon his fight?

Ricky wrote:4. Liu Bei did not ask like in Dyansty Warriors; ''Oh Ma Chao please join us, and create a new world.'' Ma Chao went on to ask him.


Nothing was like it was in Dynasty Warriors...

Anyways, Ma Chao saw the opportunity to be looked up to again. In Zhang Lu's forces, he was slandered and distrusted. Why would you stay there when there was an eager lord to the south who sought talent? Ma Chao did what was sensible, just as Peng De did what was sensible when Cao Cao conquered Han Zhong. You can't blaim him for being the bird that chose his branch.

Ricky wrote:5. He had not done anything great to earn the title ''Tiger General.'' At least the rest did something in their time with Liu Bei.


First of all, that "Tiger General" thing is fictitious. Secondly, Ma Chao held high title with Liu Bei because of 1) his reputation to the north, and 2) the amount of personal power he had because of that reputation. This is not a reputation undeserved. He commanded his army well in a number of battles, and found victory more often than most give him credit for. Ma Chao's name gave him, at that time, more worth than Guan Yu's name could ever have given him.

Ricky wrote:I could keep going, but I proved my point on him well enough.


It was already said, but you didn't prove anything. Just so I don't have to get into another extended argument, I have already defended my previous posts with quotes and well worded arguments in another Ma Chao thread, if it is still up. Don't bother quoting anything to support your opinions, because everyone could do the same. Instead, state fact over assumption, and post proof of that.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:54 pm

Tan, I was joking :wink: Ricky, you call him worthless and incompetent but without really justifying why you call him such
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Unread postby Ricky » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:40 pm

Who's comparing him to Zhao Yun?

Secondly? Ma Chao went from being the son of a leader of a powerful force to that force's leading general. From there, he became the main force keeping Cao Cao at bay during Tong Gate. After this, he was a thorn in Cao Cao's side. After this, one of the highest ranking generals in Liu Bei's army.

In history Ma Teng was just a servant of Cao Cao. Who compares him to Zhao Yun is the novel, and other great generals. For giving him the rank he did not even deserved. And DW games make him seem such a great man in the pursuit of ''Justice'' where upon the novel he was a man seeking vengeance. And did not do much in his last days.


In the beginning, he looked out for his father's alliances, fighting for Cao Cao against Yuan Shao. Later, he fought for the Qiang when shown Cao Cao'd military forces growing in Chang An. Afterwards, he fought for lost territory. Only after this did he start abandoning people and fighting for his own gain. Even if you disagree with what I've just said, all you can put forth is just as much assumption as what I've put forth is. Honestly, we can't know that he only looked out for himself since he almost always had responsibility over more than the average officer.

He did fight for Cao Cao in the start, but never proved what he can do. In most battles he was in he lost them. And his responsibility is just but the same with all heirs. I admit he wasn't the worst general in the three kingdoms. But also he wasn't as good as most.

He didn't gather anyone. Ma Teng and Han Sui gathered the Qiang. Ma Chao inherited the responsibility of commanding them. During Tong Gate, it was Han Sui who gathered them. Afterwards, The Qiang abandoned them. Their loss at Tong Gate led to them turning their backs, which left Han Sui and Ma Chao with only their personal forces. Ma Chao also constantly attacked risky positions for the sake of putting a dent in Xiahou Yuan's holding. If he only sought refuge to protect himself, why was it that his men stopped fighting, forcing Ma Chao to abandon his fight?


Though it was his responsibility of commanding his own men too. He could have at least left with them or surrendered too save is own men. He just left like the coward that he is, and saved his own skin. That's why he lost Pang De.


Anyways, Ma Chao saw the opportunity to be looked up to again. In Zhang Lu's forces, he was slandered and distrusted. Why would you stay there when there was an eager lord to the south who sought talent? Ma Chao did what was sensible, just as Peng De did what was sensible when Cao Cao conquered Han Zhong. You can't blaim him for being the bird that chose his branch.


Nice last sentence. Anyway again also left and goes away from Zhang Lu. Goes to Liu Bei and asks for a position. Liu Bei gives him a high title. For what? For losing and looking pretty? The only thing that bothered me about him, was the fact he there for a short time and he is recognized as a person with ''talent.''

First of all, that "Tiger General" thing is fictitious. Secondly, Ma Chao held high title with Liu Bei because of 1) his reputation to the north, and 2) the amount of personal power he had because of that reputation. This is not a reputation undeserved. He commanded his army well in a number of battles, and found victory more often than most give him credit for. Ma Chao's name gave him, at that time, more worth than Guan Yu's name could ever have given him.


The title is mention several places. But not in history. So his reputation to the north? The only thing's he would do were minor thing's fight skirmish's with the Qiang, until he earned their trust.Secondly his fights with helping Cao Cao was not much work, Pang De did better much better. He never faced or came close to fighting large armies. The only time was when he fought Cao Cao and lost. (Well for good reasons actually)

It was already said, but you didn't prove anything. Just so I don't have to get into another extended argument, I have already defended my previous posts with quotes and well worded arguments in another Ma Chao thread, if it is still up. Don't bother quoting anything to support your opinions, because everyone could do the same. Instead, state fact over assumption, and post proof of that.

Obviously what I was saying was ''In My Opinion.'' I don't need to type it all the time so people can understand that I alone wrote that. And I proved a point, how incompetent he was.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:57 pm

I had made a rather long, well thought out response to all of your responses, Ricky... but the message wasn't posted, unfortunately. So, I'll resort to bullet points.

Blaming Ma Chao for Luo Guanzhong's manipulation of his character, or Koei for further polarizing his history, is simply folly.

Ma Chao's commanding abilities were proven when he defeated Guo Yuan's army. It was proven when he caused Cao Cao to openly remark on his worries. It was proven when he took back conquered cities. Despite being out-thought, you can't say Ma Chao "proved" to be a useless commander. He was the beating heart in every fight he took place in.

Saying Pang De did more against Guo Yuan than Ma Chao is giving the warrior credit for the commander's victory. Pang De did not have the responsibility that Ma Chao did, and, therefore, was able to rush headlong into the enemy, cutting down whoever looked at him funny. You're saying that Guan Yu should be given credit for the victory over Yan Liang. Cao Cao beat Yan Liang, Guan Yu just killed him.

Ma Chao's history is one of betrayal. His father left the rebellion effort to serve in the capital. His commander seemed to treat the enemy. Surrendered officers gave his city, and his family, to the enemy. Zhang Lu's officers slandered and cursed him. His own soldiers did not fight for him. His abilities, however grand of small, were strongly impacted by the fact that he did not have a very solid foundation to work off of in the first place.

Ma Chao could have been given title for many reasons. Perhaps Liu Bei hoped to use it to claim reclamation of the north, rather than simply invasion. Perhaps he thought Ma Chao's ability could come in handy in another campaign. Perhaps he liked his face. Whatever the reason, one of the most successful rulers of the time decided to give him high rank. This didn't end in disaster, mind you, it just wasn't taken advantage of. And how could it have been? Ma Chao died not two years after being given rank and office. That's partly the reason his ability is in such question; he wasn't able to really do anything once he found a solid foundation.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:15 pm

In history Ma Teng was just a servant of Cao Cao. Who compares him to Zhao Yun is the novel, and other great generals. For giving him the rank he did not even deserved. And DW games make him seem such a great man in the pursuit of ''Justice'' where upon the novel he was a man seeking vengeance. And did not do much in his last days.


Jiang Wei didn't deserve such high rank as he got for just defecting either, it was simply political, Ma Chao had got Liu Zhang to surrender, had a reputation, had fought against Cao Cao, technically outranked Liu Bei I believe, rank doesn't always go to those that deserve or means they are rated highly by the ruler, indeed Xu Jing only got high minister rank to appease local officials. As for his role after his defection, his asset in keeping the Qiang onside was going to put him in such a position, Liu Bei had many skilled generals to pick from so why not keep Ma Chao there?

The historical Ma Chao is a different man from the fictionalised versions of him in the novel and game, they do different things and have different motives from each other. It is hardly fair to blame the historical Ma Chao and call him overrated using other fictional sources.

He did fight for Cao Cao in the start, but never proved what he can do. In most battles he was in he lost them.


How many battles did he have a decent chance? Ma Chao did play a part in defeating Guo Yuan but then was either part of an alliance of troops or not in a good position from what I can see for rest of his battles.

Obviously what I was saying was ''In My Opinion.'' I don't need to type it all the time so people can understand that I alone wrote that. And I proved a point, how incompetent he was.


See your opinion is fine, myself I'm not a fan of Ma Chao so left certain questions as my attempts to answer them would not be good, however claiming "I proved a point, how incompetent he was" is wide of the mark. Ma Chao's ability is a contentious subject and you have far from proved that he is incompetent"
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Unread postby Long » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:24 pm

I haven't posted in awhile, and I'd just like to chime in on a few things about Ma Chao that may serve to aid in your assessments of him.

Dong and I have argued back and forth about this for some time, on SimRTK and it wasn't until I read some of Rafe's footnotes, and maps concerning Ma Chao, that we were able to piece together some information about his capabilities.

Firstly, Ma Chao and his forces contribution against Guo Yuan was the deciding factor in that battle. Until Ma Teng sent Ma Chao and Pang De as reinforcements, Cao Cao was making no ground whatsoever against Guo Yuan. Not only was he able to defeat Guo Yuan, but he succeeded in pacifying Guo Yuan's Hun auxiliaries, which shows a measure of some diplomatic capability. Now you might say, "well Ma Chao is half barbarian himself, so of course they would favor him," and for some part that may be true, but you must also consider the fact that he was their enemy in battle before subjugating them by force. To be able to ensure the loyalty for the future of a people who's arses you just kicked is not a small accomplishment. These are all obscure facts derived from Rafe's study of the HHS and ZZTJ, and also Gustav's summary on the Liangzhou Rebellion.

Secondly, when Ma Chao marched against Cao Cao, he conquered the three commanderies of Jingzhao, Zuopingyi, and Youfufeng which account for a huge tract of land in the northwest, and also included the city of Chang An. It's interesting to note that this isn't mentioned in his SGZ bio, but apparently is in the ZZTJ, HHS, and the LR works. The reason behind this is unknown, but we all know how vague and even contradictory the SGZ bios can be. Alot of it may have to do with the esteem each person holds with their name. A prime example of this is evident in the great Cao Cao's bio, which claims it was Liu Bei who defeated him at Chi Bi, even though we all know it was Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, and Huang Gai. But it would seem less grand if Cao Cao's bio depicted a defeat by those mere vassals, and so a hero of greater reknown, Liu Bei, was credited for giving Cao Cao his most humiliating defeat. Interesting stuff.

During this time, Cao Cao's praise of, and frustration with Ma Chao are well documented, and he was a capable enough commander to nearly kill Cao Cao after foiling the river crossing. Not many can make that claim. It is also interesting to note that at the time that the Liang marched, Cao Cao was amassing a large force to march on Hanzhong, which means that Ma Chao had to have overcome them through diplomacy or by force. Zhong Yao had maintained an uneasy truce with them, but still must have offered some sort of resistance which was overcome. Diplomacy or force, take your pick. Either way Ma Chao overcame them.

Thirdly, Ma Chao was given respect and title from Liu Bei, partially because he was from an established family, and partially because he could legitimize Liu Bei's stakes in the game. Ma Chao possessed a legitimate military rank and title from the Han, which means that he could act as defacto arbitrator for the purpose of obtaining Imperial decree for Liu Bei, who up until this point, was actually a lower rank than Ma Chao I believe. Setting Ma Chao up highly within Shu's ranks was right because: A) Ma Chao already had a high rank and to demote him would have been to throw away a golden opportunity for Liu Bei, B) It was a way to pacify Ma Chao who could have had a legitimate claim to usurp control from Liu Bei himself, C) He controlled a large force which could pose a threat to Liu Bei, and D) The man was worthy of the ranks he received.

Liu Zhang surrendered after he learned that Ma Chao had joined Liu Bei, which means he was a fairly famous individual, and with reason.

My personal assessment of Ma Chao, is that he was an exceptional commander and warrior who is far more intelligent than people give him credit for (arguable), but who was weakened by the lack of a capable strategist (not arguable) to aid him in his prime. His depiction in the novel, and in DW is meant to reinforce his characteristics and personality to offer a unique vengeance driven individual hell bent on justice. It should never serve as a reference for who Ma Chao really was.

Ma Chao will probably always be one of the most controversial figures from the Three Kingdoms era.
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the tiger generals

Unread postby michaelv » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:51 pm

they were labeld the tiger generals in destiny of an emperor too.
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