The vs. Thread

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:35 am

Hyper90 wrote:Duels

Lu Bu vs Gan Ning and Ling Tong (2v1)
Zhao Yun vs Zhou Tai

Battle
Xiahou Dun & Xiahou Yuan vs Deng Ai & Weng Yan.
Sun Quan vs Liu Bei - Small army consists of peasant militias only.

If we're talking 2 on 1 I'd think Gan Ning and ling tong woild come out on too.

Zhao Yun vs zhou Tai I feel like Zhao yun would win. The man may not be compared to lu bu in power, but we see his prowess as a general exceeds some of the greatest heroes of that time.

I'd give this one to Deng ai and wen yang. Xiahou dun while a great general just isn't good at leading troops :p. I believe he attacked lu but leading troops, but failed, then another incident would be bo Wang po where he fell into Liu beis fire trao.

Finally I believe Liu bei would over come sun quan. Liu bei had years of experience leading troops and had to build up an empire from nothing, but scratch. He went from being a weaver of mats to someone who conquered over the yellow turban, constantly fought it out with cao cao, conquered jing, conquered yi, and finally pushed wu back up until lu Xun was called in to take in charge of defense.

Sun quan on the other hand was given his territory by his elder brother sun ce, failed multiple attacks on he FEI, and also could never really gain a solid footing on wei himself.
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:00 am

Ok, looked for this one, couldn't find it.

Also can't come to a decisive conclusion myself, so indulge me:

Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.

Battle or campaign, equal everything, terrain of choice. No Yue Jin interference allowed.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: Cheng Yu's bacon

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:11 am

CaTigeReptile wrote:Ok, looked for this one, couldn't find it.

Also can't come to a decisive conclusion myself, so indulge me:

Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.

Battle or campaign, equal everything, terrain of choice. No Yue Jin interference allowed.


Well the answer is obvious, Wei.

This may be the hardest vs thread challenge I've ever seen, because I have absolutely no idea how to go about answering
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Cao Chao » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:58 am

CaTigeReptile wrote:Ok, looked for this one, couldn't find it.

Also can't come to a decisive conclusion myself, so indulge me:

Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.

Battle or campaign, equal everything, terrain of choice. No Yue Jin interference allowed.

On one side you have Wenze and Gongming. Wenze is known for being steady and not particularly fancy commander, usually unaffected by any circumstances that are thrown in his direction. His steadiness after the defeat against Zhang Xiu and his defense of the Cao encampments at Guandu won him much fame. Gongming was renowned for his ferocity on the battlefield, on numerous occasions driving the enemy to commit suicide rather than face him (Hanzhong and Fancheng). Sent to relieve Guan Yu's siege of Fancheng, Gongming's use of feints allowed his counterattack to completely defeat Yunchang, and forcing many Shu Han soldiers to jump into the river. His feat at Fancheng was compared by Cao Cao as comparable to Sima Rangju's successful defense of the state of Qi during the Spring and Autumn Period and Sun Wu's strategies that allowed a much smaller Wu army defeat two Chu armies at Boju.

Against them, you have a ferocious Wenyuan and an adaptable Junyi. Wenyuan was long tasked with defending the southern frontier at Hefei against Sun Wu. His renown was won through his crushing assault at White Wolf Mountain that forced the Wuhuan to submit to Cao Wei, the courageous advance into hazardous terrain that defeated Chen Lan and Mei Cheng's rebellion, and the mighty feats of arms at Xiaoyao Ford with only 800 cavalrymen. Junyi was compared by Cao Cao to Han Xin for his resourceful ability to readily and quickly adapt to any opponent and his knowledge of geography (and also the original arrow to the knee). Feared by Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei, Junyi steadied the Cao Wei forces in Hanzhong after Xiahou Yuan's death, and successfully defended the northwest against the persistent Shu-Han invasions (including retaking the three commanderies that had surrendered to Shu Han during Kongming's first northern campaign).

Comparing the overall body of work of the Zhang's probably outweigh that of Yu Jin and Xu Huang. However, I would say that over the course of individual battles, it is likely that the two sides would be relatively even. Yu Jin's steadiness provides Xu Huang's ferocity and feints a base from which to attack, and would allow the pair to match well against Zhang Liao and Zhang He. Zhang He's caution, geographic knowledge, and adaptability would allow him to counter Xu Huang, while Zhang Liao would undoubtedly focus on the offense. During a single battle, there's enough variables to make the two sides quite even, but over the course of a complete campaign, Zhang Liao's offensive capability and Zhang He's own abilities would likely trump any defense that the other side can mount, and overwhelm Xu Huang's own ferocity and strategy, and Yu Jin's steadiness.

Now, I think it would be more even interesting if Wenqian joins Wenze and Gongming.
曹操曰:宁教我负天下人,休教天下人负我!
User avatar
Cao Chao
Langzhong
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:33 pm
Location: Whee?

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby chinesecannibal » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:56 am

Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.


Yu Jin is nowhere near as talented as Zhang He, so he would of course be behind Zhang Liao. Xu Huang would be the only one carrying (trying to) balance this fight, and he's definitely no match against the speed and tactics of Zhang He AND Zhang Liao. Which the latter is also considered an inferior version of Guan Yu.

Done.

Now,

Petyr Baelish vs Sima Yi

Only four castles, no other lands can be acquired. No interference from any other forces and officers.

Sima Yi gets Chang An and Luo Yang.
Petyr gets Han Zhong and An Ding.

Each have 100,000 men. Each have 10,000 gold. Each have 1,000,000 food.
Attachments
tumblr_inline_mj7a4sczua1qz4rgp.png
Petyr Baelish
tumblr_inline_mj7a4sczua1qz4rgp.png (133.46 KiB) Viewed 444 times
sima_yi__s_scary_face_by_dongz_sempai95-d3gofu8.png
VS Sima Yi
sima_yi__s_scary_face_by_dongz_sempai95-d3gofu8.png (196.46 KiB) Viewed 444 times
User avatar
chinesecannibal
Initiate
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:07 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:15 am

well, Sima Yi is a proven general with a pretty close to 100% success rate and a record of quick action at the decisive moment

Petyr Baelish has, AFAIK, no experience as a military commander, but has built his reputation on financial wizardry, political maneuvering and plots so complicated nobody knows what he's up to


So I'd say your scenario rather favors Sima Yi
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/
Fornadan
Assistant
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:35 pm

chinesecannibal wrote:
Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.


Yu Jin is nowhere near as talented as Zhang He, so he would of course be behind Zhang Liao.


Well, I don't think some kind of generalized aggregate of 'talent' is a good gauge of how a conflict like this would play out. I do think that Yu Jin has some definite strengths in this matchup, especially against Zhang Liao, that shouldn't be overlooked - Zhang Liao never fought an opponent like Yu Jin, whose troops didn't scatter or break formation even when surprise-attacked or when retreating, and who had a ton of energy. Yu Jin didn't defend against attacks -- he repelled them, and then punished the enemy for trying. His counterattack at Yan Ford during Guandu was savage. Yu Jin was no pushover, and I think that he'd have a chance of sending an attacking Zhang Liao home, at least the first time around, should Zhang He and Xu Huang be taken out of the picture.

Xu Huang would be the only one carrying (trying to) balance this fight, and he's definitely no match against the speed and tactics of Zhang He AND Zhang Liao. Which the latter is also considered an inferior version of Guan Yu.


Well if Zhang Liao is inferior to Guan Yu, then Xu Huang should have no problem, should he? :lol: My fault for not specifying, I meant historical, not novel-based (though Zhang He is a liability in the novel so I don't see Xu Huang worrying about him)

Cao Chao wrote:On one side you have Wenze and Gongming. Wenze is known for being steady and not particularly fancy commander, usually unaffected by any circumstances that are thrown in his direction. His steadiness after the defeat against Zhang Xiu and his defense of the Cao encampments at Guandu won him much fame. Gongming was renowned for his ferocity on the battlefield, on numerous occasions driving the enemy to commit suicide rather than face him (Hanzhong and Fancheng). Sent to relieve Guan Yu's siege of Fancheng, Gongming's use of feints allowed his counterattack to completely defeat Yunchang, and forcing many Shu Han soldiers to jump into the river. His feat at Fancheng was compared by Cao Cao as comparable to Sima Rangju's successful defense of the state of Qi during the Spring and Autumn Period and Sun Wu's strategies that allowed a much smaller Wu army defeat two Chu armies at Boju.


This is more along the lines of what I'm talking about. In terms of ferocity, well, Yu Jin did manage to get Zhu Ling, said to be second only to Xu Huang in ferocity and command style, to give up his army simply by showing up with a dozen horsemen and reading Cao Cao's proclamation (I believe the word used to describe him is "majestic"). But honestly, I'm not sure how the generals' reputations would affect each other's morale, as all four were quite renowned (obviously) so their troops might be confident enough to ignore any kind of displays.

Against them, you have a ferocious Wenyuan and an adaptable Junyi. Wenyuan was long tasked with defending the southern frontier at Hefei against Sun Wu. His renown was won through his crushing assault at White Wolf Mountain that forced the Wuhuan to submit to Cao Wei, the courageous advance into hazardous terrain that defeated Chen Lan and Mei Cheng's rebellion, and the mighty feats of arms at Xiaoyao Ford with only 800 cavalrymen. Junyi was compared by Cao Cao to Han Xin for his resourceful ability to readily and quickly adapt to any opponent and his knowledge of geography (and also the original arrow to the knee). Feared by Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei, Junyi steadied the Cao Wei forces in Hanzhong after Xiahou Yuan's death, and successfully defended the northwest against the persistent Shu-Han invasions (including retaking the three commanderies that had surrendered to Shu Han during Kongming's first northern campaign).


For what it's worth, you see the Zhang He and Zhang Liao teamup a bit more in history -- Zhang He accompanied Zhang Liao as the vanguard at White Wolf mountain; He was also Zhang Liao's deputy against Chen Lan and Mei Cheng at Mount Tianzhu (Yu Jin was there too, but that's beside the point). I don't recall Xu Huang and Yu Jin campaigning together, at least not in a way where they would directly interact (though I'm not actually sure what Yu Jin did from 209-219).

Comparing the overall body of work of the Zhang's probably outweigh that of Yu Jin and Xu Huang. However, I would say that over the course of individual battles, it is likely that the two sides would be relatively even. Yu Jin's steadiness provides Xu Huang's ferocity and feints a base from which to attack, and would allow the pair to match well against Zhang Liao and Zhang He. Zhang He's caution, geographic knowledge, and adaptability would allow him to counter Xu Huang, while Zhang Liao would undoubtedly focus on the offense. During a single battle, there's enough variables to make the two sides quite even, but over the course of a complete campaign, Zhang Liao's offensive capability and Zhang He's own abilities would likely trump any defense that the other side can mount, and overwhelm Xu Huang's own ferocity and strategy, and Yu Jin's steadiness.


I agree in the context of an individual open battle that it's up for grabs. I still see Yu Jin being able to cause some serious disruption rather than just hanging back. As for a seige, I think that the defenders would win either way. But I feel like an extended campaign, especially in mountainous terrain, could go either way, too, and hinges upon whether Zhang He or Xu Huang takes advantage of some stochastic event first. Which is why I posted this matchup . . . because I still don't know.

Now, I think it would be more even interesting if Wenqian joins Wenze and Gongming.


No Yue Jin allowed! Yue Jin, Yu Jin, and Xu Huang were basically the backbone of the Guandu campaign. But if Yue Jin joined either side, it would turn into a curbstomp - not only would you have three commanders against two, which is an advantage even if the overall troop numbers are the same, but Yue Jin never lost a battle that I can recall. He was a juggernaut. Maybe that's the answer to the question - Cao Cao sends Yue Jin to flank all four during a battle and makes them all go back to work. :mrgreen:

OKAY..

. . . I don't know who Petyr Baelish is, sorry.

But, speaking of Mount Tianzhu, I was thinking of another versus scenario . . .

If all the other commanders involved in the battle of Mount Tianzhu (Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Niu Gai, too, I guess, who might have been Niu Jin's brother, Yu Jin, Zang Ba, and Han Dang) joined with the rebels (Chen Lan and Mei Cheng),who in Wei (circa 209) would take them out, and how long would they hold out?

Keep in mind that Chen Lan and Mei Cheng were enough of a threat that 1) Sun Quan thought their rebellion was viable enough to send Han Dang with 30,000 troops to support them, and 2) Cao Cao sent Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Yu Jin and Zang Ba to subjugate them - which by 209 is a team of all-stars, so they were no chumps.

Terrain: It's a mountain range. The way up the peak itself (Heavenly Pillar) where the rebels ended up fortifying is extraordinarily treacherous, with narrow paths, steep valleys, and plenty of places to hide an ambush. There are apparently only two ways up; one to the east, and one to the west. Quite a few battles were fought for it and on it throughout history because of its strategically important location.

Supplies: There is fresh water available along the way and at the summit - there's no indication that the rebels were transporting supplies from the bottom, whereas Zhang Liao had to wait for Yu Jin to bring him supplies before being able to climb the mountain, so we'll say that the rebels have a supply advantage.

Troops: We know that Han Dang had 30,000 troops, but that's all we know, and he was backup. (He also never made it, since Zang Ba ambushed him.) So let's say that they're evenly matched in numbers and training because it's more fun that way.
Last edited by CaTigeReptile on Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: Cheng Yu's bacon

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:14 am

Yeah the Yu Jin dismissal seemed odd, but then even Koei overlooks the poor guy.

CaTigeReptile wrote:If all the other commanders involved in the battle of Mount Tianzhu (Zhang Liao, Zhang He, Niu Gai, too, I guess, who might have been Niu Jin's brother, Yu Jin, Zang Ba, and Han Dang) joined with the rebels (Chen Lan and Mei Cheng),who in Wei (circa 209) would take them out, and how long would they hold out?


Well you included factors like the two armies being similar in size and training, but I do wonder just how large the mountain was supposed to be. I mean can you station another 60k well-trained troops up there?

Anyway I'm going to take the cop-out response and say that most of the Wei/Wu guys wouldn't respond well to working under these rebels, the moment Chen and/or Mei issue a dumb order things will break down fast, considering most of these commanders strike me as allergic to dumb. :lol:
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:58 pm

CaTigeReptile wrote:Ok, looked for this one, couldn't find it.

Also can't come to a decisive conclusion myself, so indulge me:

Zhang Liao & Zhang He vs. Xu Huang & Yu Jin.

Battle or campaign, equal everything, terrain of choice. No Yue Jin interference allowed.

I'd have to give it to Zhang Liao and Zhang He.
Zhang Liao has a stern will, that wouldn't let him surrender, while Zhang He has the knowledge and tactics of a great general.
Xu Huang would be equal to Zhang He, but while Yu Jin is actually very capable (in my opinion) if he were in a situation where recovery would be very difficult, I think he'd surrender. Now I'm not trying to get to off topic, but I believe Yu jin's surrender was not out of selfishness, but rather out of love for his troops, so that they wouldn't have to suffer.
Anyways back to the topic at hand I think Zhang He and Zhang Liao would have the overall upper hand only because their will power and synergy would be a lot better.
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:43 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Yeah the Yu Jin dismissal seemed odd, but then even Koei overlooks the poor guy.
Hey now, if I recall, he played quite a memorable role in Kessen II . . . poor guy.

Well you included factors like the two armies being similar in size and training, but I do wonder just how large the mountain was supposed to be. I mean can you station another 60k well-trained troops up there?


It's a mountain range, to be fair. Han Dang's 30k might have either been a Chinese historical number drop or he was going to follow them up the hill. I found out Mei Chen had 3k troops, though, which sounds reasonable if we insist that everyone was sitting on top of each other at the very summit -- but since you asked about the size of the mountain, I looked at Google Earth . . . :wink:

Image

It was a natural border between Wei and Wu,

Image

And seems to be pretty daunting.

Here, I made you a whole gallery because I'm procrastinating. http://imgur.com/a/p7jOa

Either way I just didn't want either side to have the blobbing power, though as you point out, a larger army might not actually be all that advantageous.

Anyway I'm going to take the cop-out response and say that most of the Wei/Wu guys wouldn't respond well to working under these rebels, the moment Chen and/or Mei issue a dumb order things will break down fast, considering most of these commanders strike me as allergic to dumb. :lol:


I'm sensing a cop-out pattern here. :P Hey if they were really into the cause, they'd just take over themselves. Between the five of them I think they could convince Mei and Chen's followers to accept it. :mrgreen:

I mean, Chen Lan was a general under Yuan Shu for what that's worth, and he left before most of Yuan Shu's embarrassing campaigns; he was there for beating back Liu Bei at Xu, so he was maybe not awful.

I think that if Cao Cao threw everyone else at the rebels (Xu Huang, Yue Jin, Cao Ren, Xiahou Yuan, Li Dian, Zhu Ling), it would only be a matter of time until he won. The only problem there is that Xu Huang, Yue Jin, and Cao Ren were busy fighting in Jiangling in 209, depending on the exact time of year the rebellion took place, which is what puts him in a tricky situation. Of course, there's always The Man himself . . .

greencactaur wrote:I'd have to give it to Zhang Liao and Zhang He.
Zhang Liao has a stern will, that wouldn't let him surrender, while Zhang He has the knowledge and tactics of a great general.
Xu Huang would be equal to Zhang He, but while Yu Jin is actually very capable (in my opinion) if he were in a situation where recovery would be very difficult, I think he'd surrender. Now I'm not trying to get to off topic, but I believe Yu jin's surrender was not out of selfishness, but rather out of love for his troops, so that they wouldn't have to suffer.
Anyways back to the topic at hand I think Zhang He and Zhang Liao would have the overall upper hand only because their will power and synergy would be a lot better.


Well then, the Zhangs seem to be the consensus. I can live with that.

I just want to throw out there, though, in further defense of Yu Jin, that his surrender didn't happen because recovery would be very difficult, it happened because recovery would have been absolutely impossible - he'd already lost. He was trapped on high ground with the vast majority of his army -- and very likely most of his supplies -- destroyed. Even if his troops could have theoretically held off for a little bit, it would only delay the inevitable. I also agree that he surrendered for a tactical or otherwise thoughtful reason. On top of the idea that he did it to save whoever was left (which would make sense, Yu Jin seemed to have a compassionate streak), one theory I read was that since Guan Yu was also low on supplies, it was a deliberate effort to drain Guan Yu's supplies faster by making him take on the burden of feeding what remained of Yu Jin's army (which then, of course, led to Guan Yu attacking Sun Quan and stealing supplies, and we all know how that ended). He was a commander for 30 years, and I can't imagine he wasn't aware that surrendering, an action traumatic and humiliating in itself, would essentially relegate him to a fate worse than death (given his refusal to defect, which was what pretty much everyone else did at the time). Besides, if he were really doing it out of selfishness, he probably would have sent his troops to their deaths, get captured, give Guan some Wei intel, and then be 'executed' and live out the rest of his life in a nice villa in Chengdu
Last edited by CaTigeReptile on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: Cheng Yu's bacon

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved