The vs. Thread

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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Sat May 23, 2015 4:27 am

Co: Sun Fin
Tac: Dong Zhou
Van: Kausu

vs

Co: Zyzyfer
Tac: Shen Ai
Van: Xia Kyoto


:P

--

Co: Zhuge Zhan
Tac: Luo Xian
Main: Wang Ping
Van: Zhang Yi (Late Shu era)

vs

Co: Sima Zhao
Tac: Sima Shi
Main: Du Yu
Van: Zhou Zhi

Guo Huai vs Yang Hu, even everything.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat May 23, 2015 6:31 am

Zyzyfer wrote:[
lol I think I expressed myself obliquely/poorly in my comments about Zhu Ling. Yes, I basically said that he was held back due to Cao Cao disliking him. And I was under the impression that he already had some accolades before joining Cao Cao, but I think I was mistaken. I thought Cao Cao flat-out ignored him but Zhu Ling was active enough while Cao Cao was in power.

Side note, I checked out his Wiki page (yes I know not best source, etc etc) and it's kind of...bizarre.


During the campaign against Ma Chao in 211, Cao Cao secretly ordered Zhu Ling and Xu Huang to march through the night and camp west of the Yellow River. Because they had taken their positions as planned, Ma Chao could not advance towards the Yellow River and Xiahou Yuan was able to suppress the Di people in the area. Early the following year, Zhu Ling and Lu Zhao joined Xiahou Yuan's army in the march at Chang An, leading to the defeat of one of Ma Chao and Han Sui's allies, Liang Xing. Soon afterward, Cao Cao ordered an army to attack Zhang Lu. Zhang He and his troops were ordered to join, but they couldn't enter Hanzhong since several Di rioters prevented their march. Zhu Ling came to Zhang He's assistance and they wiped them out together. He followed Zhang He and Xu Huang into Hanzhong yet they suffered defeat when Xiahou Yuan was killed by Liu Bei's army.

Around this time, Cao Cao developed a grudge towards Zhu Ling. The reasons why are not clearly stated, but many believe that it was because Cao Cao blamed Zhu Ling for not saving Xiahou Yuan from danger when he needed help the most. Cao Cao wanted to somehow confiscate Zhu Ling's power over his troops so he ordered Yu Jin to lead several dozen horsemen to surround Zhu Ling's encampment. Zhu Ling raised his men in alarm, but he was frightened by the utter dignity he saw in Yu Jin and didn't resist. Instead, he submitted to the brave general and agreed to become Yu Jin's subordinate. He followed his new superior and Cao Ren to Fan Castle and was one of the many trapped by Guan Yu's water attack.


Xia Kyoto wrote:Co: Sun Fin
Tac: Dong Zhou
Van: Kausu

vs

Co: Zyzyfer
Tac: Shen Ai
Van: Xia Kyoto
[/quote]

Gonna have to give it to the first team. Tactically, we're outmatched.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby KauSu » Mon May 25, 2015 8:11 am

KauSu wrote:Match ups:
Gao Shun vs Yue Jin: Both leading their respective vanguards against each-other.
Man Chong vs Lu Meng: Lu Meng besieges Man Chong, can Boning defend his walled city?
Sun Hao vs Liu Shan: Pie-eating, wine-drinking, concubine-loving contest.

^ Quoting that one to keep it alive.

@Xia, Shen Ai: I agree with Shen. Our team is better, specially in the vanguard department!

Xia Kyoto wrote:Co: Zhuge Zhan
Tac: Luo Xian
Main: Wang Ping
Van: Zhang Yi (Late Shu era)

vs

Co: Sima Zhao
Tac: Sima Shi
Main: Du Yu
Van: Zhou Zhi.


I would give this EASILY to Team 2. Even though I'm kind of weirded out by Zhao being in command over Shi :3.
Sima Zhao > Zhuge Zhan, in like everything.
Sima Shi > Luo Xian, in like everything.
Du Yu = Wang Ping. While Ping was more experience leading troops etc, he never saw much success, while Du Yu was in command in one of one third of one of the biggest campaigns, and took down Wu, even though it was ailing. Du Yu can also be argued as the better learned of the two, as he was an expert in many texts, while Ping couldn't read.
Zhou Zhi > Zhang Yi: I'm assuming this is Zhang Yi and not Zhang Ni. He doesn't compare to Zhou Zhi in the vanguard department at all, but neither does Zhang Ni, so both of them would lose out to Zhou.

As for Guo Huai vs Yang Hu, I'd give this to Guo Huai. Yang Hu imo is one of those people that were highly overrated because of what "could have been", like Guo Jia, or like what I do with Cao Chun, Sun Yu, etc. He was a very capable administrator, and held his post well. But he never faced the same onslaught that Guo Huai did. Huai, on the other hand, was the shining light in what was one of the worst campaigns for Wei (Hanzhong), and he was sensible enough to just cede command to Zhang He as soon as he rallied and reorganized Xiahou Yuan's routed troops after his death. He stood up against the Northern Campaigns and had great success, relocated a lot of the tribes... I think he was also responsible for all but depopulating places like Wudu, etc? Pretty much t urned that border into a wasteland so even if Shu got control of it, it wasn't valuable in terms of resources, taxable households, and soldiers to conscript. His on-field record isn't bad either. To me, Guo Huai is one of the top Generals of the period.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Qu Hui » Fri May 29, 2015 2:09 am

Xia Kyoto wrote:Co: Zhuge Zhan
Tac: Luo Xian
Main: Wang Ping
Van: Zhang Yi (Late Shu era)

vs

Co: Sima Zhao
Tac: Sima Shi
Main: Du Yu
Van: Zhou Zhi

Team two by a lot. Wang Ping and Du Yu would be fairly evenly matched and Zhou Zhi would probably lose to Zhang Yi, but Zhuge Zhan is way less talented than Sima Zhao, and Sima Shi wins over Luo Xian by virtue of experience.

Xia Kyoto wrote:Guo Huai vs Yang Hu, even everything.

Guo Huai. Yang Hu was more an administrator and politician while Guo Huai could do that and was a very capable general.

KauSu wrote:Du Yu = Wang Ping. While Ping was more experience leading troops etc, he never saw much success, while Du Yu was in command in one of one third of one of the biggest campaigns, and took down Wu, even though it was ailing. Du Yu can also be argued as the better learned of the two, as he was an expert in many texts, while Ping couldn't read.

I would respectfully disagree. Aside from holding out well against the extremely talented Zhang He at Jieting and Qishan, forcing He into retreat in both instances, Wang Ping also quickly neutralized Wei Yan's rebellion and played a key role in repelling Cao Shuang's invasion. In addition, Wang Ping was actually quite learned, despite his illiteracy; he often had people read texts to him, and was easily able to grasp their meaning that way. He was also a competent administrator, despite his illiteracy.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:59 pm

How about Du Yu and Lu Kang? Which do you think was superior there? In all matters.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:31 am

Shen Ai wrote:How about Du Yu and Lu Kang? Which do you think was superior there? In all matters.


I suppose Du Yu, but given the lack of information on him (that I can find), I'm not totally comfortable with that.

What I can find, which apparently references that 34th volume of the Book of Jin, he was one of the most important commanders during the invasion of Shu Han, and was possibly the most successful commander during the invasion of Eastern Wu. He also wrote an influential commentary on the Zuo Zhuan.

Lu Kang has much more information, apparently - he made many attempts to promote virtue within his state, including befriending Yang Hu across the border, and sending letters to Sun Hao. Something like this is very hard to quantify, particularly when it was not very effective in regards to his lieges (Sun Liang, Xiu, and Hao). It was mentioned he had success while reinforcing Zhuge Dan during the third rebellion in Shou Chun, but I can't find details. He was also quite good in the Battle of Xiling, putting down the rebellion and foiling Yang Hu's reinforcements and plot regarding transporting supplies via the dyke near Jiang Ling. His officers also defected, and he was put in a very perilous situation; but guile and skill saw him through.

Du Yu simply had more achievements in the military field from what I can see, and his academic achievement (a commentary) is more influential in the grand scheme of things than Lu Kang's policy of strong morality, although I personally like Lu Kang more now that I've learned about it.

I want to mention that I'm slightly inclined to think Lu Kang might be the better commander. Du Yu's command situations were where he had an advantage against his foes, possibly a big one. He still did well to win his battles, but Lu Kang was put in a difficult situation while dealing with a revolt, a defection, and a difficult foe in Yang Hu. He showed intelligence, skill, and deep knowledge about the situation of both sides in the battle, and managed to pull victory from a situation it seems like many would have been defeated in.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby XuSheng » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:08 pm

I have searched the thread for this matchup and I saw some reply about it, but I want more opinion !

Zhang Liao vs Deng Ai in a battle. Equal numbers on both side. Who is the better general and who would win in a battle ?

Thanks guys !
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zafar Khan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:28 am

XuSheng wrote:I have searched the thread for this matchup and I saw some reply about it, but I want more opinion !

Zhang Liao vs Deng Ai in a battle. Equal numbers on both side. Who is the better general and who would win in a battle ?

Thanks guys !


hmm tough one.


Liao had very much experience against all odds. so was Ai. their strength in this field comes from their creativity(beside bravery) in limited resources and manpower, so i gave both generals intelligence were on par

about experience during their peak era both were equal. Liao's experience from Lu Bu era until last campaign against Wu was unparalelled. On the other hand Ai's commanding experience were collective one. no single disappointment from Deng Ai's performance from defense against Jiang Wei's invasion to suppressing rebellion of Zhuge Dan.
however given the longer time of Zhang Liao Military career i give this one to Zhang Liao

on the field of personal vitality, battle in Hefei castle was blatant proof about Zhang Liao's strength as person. twice breaking the encirclement while personally leading the rescue team requires extraordinary martial arts knowledge and capability to engage with enemy soldiers in melee. while Deng Ai i never heard him personally take on field to duel or engaging enemies, but his stamina to personally lead the exhausting operation during the invasion to Cheng du has spoken itself.
On this field i gave it to Zhang Liao

Last field about unit maintenance. Deng Ai was famous for his phenomenal supply administration which built supply irrigation to increase the productivity of provisions for 100.000 soldiers. perfecting the Tuntian System founded by Cao Cao further. while Zhang Liao wasnt really known for his administration feats.on this field i rank him below Xiahou Yuan, Xiahou Dun.
so i gave this to Zhang Liao



i choose Zhang Liao for open field battle

but if the battle was dragged for long war of attrition, Deng Ai has a chance given his skill for administration to give efficiency of his army's expenditure & his fortitude for long run campaign such as the invasion of Cheng Du

but given the last
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Hyper90 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:46 am

Duels

Lu Bu vs Gan Ning and Ling Tong (2v1)
Zhao Yun vs Zhou Tai

Battle
Xiahou Dun & Xiahou Yuan vs Deng Ai & Weng Yan.
Sun Quan vs Liu Bei - Small army consists of peasant militias only.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:39 pm

Hyper90 wrote:Duels

Lu Bu vs Gan Ning and Ling Tong (2v1)
Zhao Yun vs Zhou Tai

Battle
Xiahou Dun & Xiahou Yuan vs Deng Ai & Weng Yan.
Sun Quan vs Liu Bei - Small army consists of peasant militias only.


Lu Bu. While Gan Ning is very tough, I don't think that Ling Tong is good enough for that battle.
Deng Ai and Wen Yan. Xiahou Dun while personally tough his ability to lead an army isn't as good as the others.

Liu Bei. Sun Quan while a much better administrator then Liu Bei isn't as good on the field.
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