The vs. Thread

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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed May 20, 2015 11:58 am

IIRC there was also some discussion about Sun Yi succeeding, but nothing came of that. Given how Sun Quan reacted after Sun Yi's death, I doubt Sun Yi made any plays for power.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed May 20, 2015 5:51 pm

I think Sun Yi would have been a serious candidate if Ce had died a few years later but at the age he was they might as well have had Sun Shao with a regent!
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby KauSu » Wed May 20, 2015 10:22 pm

@ Fin: True, Ce does blow everyone else out of the water. I guess he'd just powerhouse that vs. a la Zhang Liao at Hefei.

Also, thank you so much for the bio you've provided. As for your note on Sun Yi's age - wasn't Yi a half-brother that's just a little bit over a year younger than Quan? So he must have been around 15-17 by the time Ce died? I don't think it's his age, it's Ce's recommendation of Quan. Yi did resemble Ce a bit, or rather Ce minus quite a lot of brain cells.

MORE VS!

Huang Hao vs Zhang Rang, political struggle!

Zhu Ling, with Wang Shuang leading his van vs Chen Shi, with Wu Lan leading his van, battle! (equal terms, etc, whenever I say 'battle'! :p)
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu May 21, 2015 12:33 am

A lot of the recent ones have been with people I am not very familiar with in terms of details about their combat or strategic success. And this one kind of isn't any different. But...

KauSu wrote:Zhu Ling, with Wang Shuang leading his van vs Chen Shi, with Wu Lan leading his van, battle! (equal terms, etc, whenever I say 'battle'! :p)


Did Chen Shi actually do anything of note? Is this the Shu guy we're talking about? The one who just kind of waffled about over the course of several campaigns?

At least Zhu Ling's reputation preceded him. And didn't he do well once Cao Pi took over and the yoke was taken off?

The vans are really inconsequential. So I think Zhu Ling would comfortably win.

Huang Hao vs Zhang Rang, political struggle!


Um. Hmm. I think Zhang Rang's influence was larger in scope. But Huang Hao's position was less precarious and I get the impression that he made fewer "we will straight up KILL YOU" enemies like the Ten Eunuchs. So it really depends on if the political struggle is meteoric and we're going for maximum carnage before that comet slams straight into the sun, or if we're talking establishing a viable presence politically that can last.

Head to head, though, I don't think Huang Hao had that nasty streak in him to scrap with Zhang Rang?
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby KauSu » Thu May 21, 2015 5:33 am

@Zyzyfer: I'm a bit of a hipster I guess - I'm assuming most of the big names were done and people are tired of answering "Lu Meng vs Xu Huang" every 2nd page :oops:

As for Chen Shi, yes the Shu officer. I can't really pull up a bio on him because I'm pretty sure what's known about him is from different SGZ bios, he has none (that I know of), but the tl;dr version on him: Trusted greatly by Liu Bei, who assigned him key positions during the Hanzhong campaign (got whooped by Xu Huang) and subsequently the invasion of Wu. Did well being either co or vice commander of the navy, until he was defeated by Zhu Ran and Song Qian. Retreated to Baidicheng. Served under Ma Su during the horror show that was Jieting. Received the lightest punishment out of Ma Su's subordinate generals. Was one of the few officers to gain merit during Zhuge Liang's Northern Campaigns after that.

As there's no SGZ on him, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang gave him key positions, AND his notable defeats were by Xu Huang, Zhu Ran, and Zhang He - all top tier opponents, makes me think that Chen Shi was no slouch. But then again, this is guesswork.

I'd actually pick Zhu Ling too, just by a hair. And I think his career took off AFTER Cao Pi came in power, wasn't it Cao Cao that kinda disliked him?

As for the political struggle, I like your assessment.

MOAR VS! I AM THE VS MONSTER:

Zhou Zhi vs Chen Wu, skirmish with 600 soldiers on either side.
Fan Chou1 vs Wang Ping, as above.
Zhang Yan vs Yang Feng, if their respective 'bandit' armies clashed*

1: Yes, I'm totally serious about matching Dong Zhuo's Fan Chou against Wang Ping.
*: Xu Huang isn't serving Yang Feng in this hypothetical match up.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu May 21, 2015 12:59 pm

KauSu wrote:
Also, thank you so much for the bio you've provided. As for your note on Sun Yi's age - wasn't Yi a half-brother that's just a little bit over a year younger than Quan? So he must have been around 15-17 by the time Ce died? I don't think it's his age, it's Ce's recommendation of Quan. Yi did resemble Ce a bit, or rather Ce minus quite a lot of brain cells.


Rafe in GoTS:

Sun Shao, therefore, was not a serious rival to Sun Quan. Sun Yi, however, might have been. Sun Yi was the third son of Sun Jian, also born of the Lady Wu, and thus the younger full brother of Sun Ce and Sun Quan. We are told in his biography in Sanguo zhi that he was energetic and out-going, more like Sun Ce than the somewhat reserved and perhaps more thoughtful Sun Quan. Dian lue, moreover, quoted in the Pei Songzhi commentary to the biography, says that when Sun Ce
was on the point of death his counsellor Zhang Zhao and other advisers urged him to appoint Sun Yi, not Sun Quan, as his successor. Sun Ce, however, rejected this advice, and handed the seals and ribbons of his authority to Sun Quan.

At that time, Sun Yi would have been seventeen sui, about sixteen years old by Western reckoning. In theory, at least, he had
attained manhood, and he could have been acceptable as the leader of the forces of the Sun family. On the other hand, there is no question that such an appointment would have produced critical tensions between Sun Yi and Sun Quan, and would almost certainly have caused a division in the family. Most importantly, at that time it was Sun Quan who had been groomed for authority after Sun Ce, and Sun Yi had only just reached the age when he might have been able to gather support.


So first of all Sun Yi was certainly a full brother of Quan and Ce. Whilst only 2 or so years younger I guess those were two crucial years. I feel like he was more discounted by age by Sun Ce who it appears understood the hazards of succession wars. Shame Sun Quan wasn't as competent as his brother isn't it? :wink:
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 21, 2015 4:03 pm

KauSu wrote:
Huang Hao vs Zhang Rang, political struggle!

Zhu Ling, with Wang Shuang leading his van vs Chen Shi, with Wu Lan leading his van, battle! (equal terms, etc, whenever I say 'battle'! :p)


Zhang Rang actually won political battles so him.

Chen Shi was a capable officer but going Zhu Ling

Fan Chou1 vs Wang Ping, as above.
Zhang Yan vs Yang Feng, if their respective 'bandit' armies clashed*


Wang Ping with ease

Zhang Yan I believe had the better record. Yang Feng was a capable general but Zhang Yan was a step above
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu May 21, 2015 10:04 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:At least Zhu Ling's reputation preceded him. And didn't he do well once Cao Pi took over and the yoke was taken off?


You're thinking of Zhang Ji maybe? But Zhu Ling was promoted and rewarded by Cao Pi, yes.

As for who'd win, Zhu Ling was compared to Xu Huang, which is good enough for me.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri May 22, 2015 2:35 am

KauSu wrote:@Zyzyfer: I'm a bit of a hipster I guess - I'm assuming most of the big names were done and people are tired of answering "Lu Meng vs Xu Huang" every 2nd page :oops:


Dirty hipsters!

Nah, the match-ups are usually pretty exotic these days. It's just that, the last few of them, I was either unfamiliar or rusty with their accolades, and wasn't able to brush up on their careers for whatever reason, so it was hard to comment. :oops:

I also can't check SGZs easily at work if they are hosted on the Kongming website (might get blocked).

As for Chen Shi, yes the Shu officer. I can't really pull up a bio on him because I'm pretty sure what's known about him is from different SGZ bios, he has none (that I know of), but the tl;dr version on him: Trusted greatly by Liu Bei, who assigned him key positions during the Hanzhong campaign (got whooped by Xu Huang) and subsequently the invasion of Wu. Did well being either co or vice commander of the navy, until he was defeated by Zhu Ran and Song Qian. Retreated to Baidicheng. Served under Ma Su during the horror show that was Jieting. Received the lightest punishment out of Ma Su's subordinate generals. Was one of the few officers to gain merit during Zhuge Liang's Northern Campaigns after that.


Thanks for that. All I really knew about was he was part of the Northern Campaigns - but unaware he gained merit in them - and I vaguely knew something about being there for Yiling, but that was it.

Given this info, however, I'm actually less confident in my Zhu Ling pick, hah.

KauSu wrote:I'd actually pick Zhu Ling too, just by a hair. And I think his career took off AFTER Cao Pi came in power, wasn't it Cao Cao that kinda disliked him?


Shen Ai wrote:You're thinking of Zhang Ji maybe? But Zhu Ling was promoted and rewarded by Cao Pi, yes.


lol I think I expressed myself obliquely/poorly in my comments about Zhu Ling. Yes, I basically said that he was held back due to Cao Cao disliking him. And I was under the impression that he already had some accolades before joining Cao Cao, but I think I was mistaken. I thought Cao Cao flat-out ignored him but Zhu Ling was active enough while Cao Cao was in power.

Side note, I checked out his Wiki page (yes I know not best source, etc etc) and it's kind of...bizarre.

MOAR VS! I AM THE VS MONSTER:

Zhou Zhi vs Chen Wu, skirmish with 600 soldiers on either side.


I kind of want to give it to Chen Wu but I think Zhou Zhi would take it.


Fan Chou vs Wang Ping, as above.


What is Fan Chou known for, aside from being buds with Han Sui? I'm sure he was fairly competent and a wee bit underrated like his cohorts Li Jue and Guo Si, but going with Wang Ping.

Zhang Yan vs Yang Feng, if their respective 'bandit' armies clashed*


Zhang Yan seemed more organized and dangerous. I no longer recall the specifics of Yang Feng's entry into the capital but the White Wave Bandits were kind of a mess, weren't they?
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby KauSu » Fri May 22, 2015 8:22 pm

@ Everyone: I think I'm the only one that actually rates Fan Chou highly enough to rate him above Wang Ping. :roll:

@Zyzyfer: AFAIK, Fan Chou was more or less the best general on the Guo Si/Li Jue side. He was a key factor in taking Chang'an, and defeating Lu Bu and Xu Rong - who were no slouches, he also defeated Ma Teng, and Han Sui. Some sources even claim Ma Chao was a part of the attack on Chang'an but I doubt it. I think he was too young at 14-16 years of age. I've seen people claim that his execution was more due to the fact that Li Jue wanted to eliminate him - a threat, rather than the offense of allowing Han Sui to run away. His victory ratio > Wang Ping's, and he actually takes that contest for me.

Match ups:
Gao Shun vs Yue Jin: Both leading their respective vanguards against each-other.
Man Chong vs Lu Meng: Lu Meng besieges Man Chong, can Boning defend his walled city?
Sun Hao vs Liu Shan: Pie-eating, wine-drinking, concubine-loving contest.
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