The vs. Thread

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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:38 pm

I wouldn't call either one of the great minds of the era. Not as an insult, both highly intelligent men but just think there are others who were even greater.

I would probably go for Zhou Yu as the better strategist despite not knowing how his invasion of Yi would end up but perhaps Sima Yi (no slouch as he could be a bold strategist bar facing Zhuge Liang) the better all round mind given his political and propaganda abilities. Both perhaps strengths also lay in parts of their personality, Zhou Yu made a good commander becuase of his good nature, Sima Yi was successful becuase he had a ruthlessness that Cao Shuang (who did beat him politically for some time) lacked
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:52 pm

I don't think Zhou Yu was an especially good strategist but an excellent military leader. He did have the wisdom to recognise good strategy but they were pretty much all Lu Meng. I'd still pick Zhou Yu over Sima Yi any day. It was ridiculous what Sima Yi did with Zhang He unless he wanted him to die.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:13 pm

This has probably been talked about before, but i'm curious as to everyone's opinion. How do you rank the 3 major lords? Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Quan. Mainly in terms of commanding troops, tactical/strategic prowess, knowledge of internal affairs etc.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Han » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:18 pm

Cao > Liu > Sun for the first two.

Cao > Sun > Liu for the last.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:21 pm

This may have been asked before I forget but what if, when Liu Bei was serving Yuan Shao he managed to befriend Zhang He and managed to get Zhang He to come with him to Jing.
Could Liu Bei achieve more with the talent of Zhang He, and how would not having Zhang He effect Cao Cao?
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:05 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:This may have been asked before I forget but what if, when Liu Bei was serving Yuan Shao he managed to befriend Zhang He and managed to get Zhang He to come with him to Jing.
Could Liu Bei achieve more with the talent of Zhang He, and how would not having Zhang He effect Cao Cao?

I think this might be in the wrong topic :P. That being said I don't know if having Zhang He would've made much of a difference for the Shu forces. I imagine everything would've played out the same .Liu Bei takes Jing, Conquers Yi, Conquers Hanzhong, Loses at Yiling, dies and passes the "torch" to Zhuge Liang. At jie Ting I imagine Ma Su still being tasked with guarding the supply depot, and still taking the high ground to camp. Another Wei officer would've probably done the same thing and cut off his water supply/surround the hill.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:21 pm

greencactaur wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:This may have been asked before I forget but what if, when Liu Bei was serving Yuan Shao he managed to befriend Zhang He and managed to get Zhang He to come with him to Jing.
Could Liu Bei achieve more with the talent of Zhang He, and how would not having Zhang He effect Cao Cao?

I think this might be in the wrong topic :P. That being said I don't know if having Zhang He would've made much of a difference for the Shu forces. I imagine everything would've played out the same .Liu Bei takes Jing, Conquers Yi, Conquers Hanzhong, Loses at Yiling, dies and passes the "torch" to Zhuge Liang. At jie Ting I imagine Ma Su still being tasked with guarding the supply depot, and still taking the high ground to camp. Another Wei officer would've probably done the same thing and cut off his water supply/surround the hill.


I did this on my phone, i guess my fat fingers hit the wrong link :lol:

I won't make a long message as this is the wrong thread but, I do think that it would change quite a bit, as Zhang He's talent would be very evident in my mind he would become as valuable as Zhang Fei and Guan Yu and perhaps could have led the war against Wu at Yi Ling. Having someone as talented as Zhang He leading the vanguard could have changed that battle dramatically.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:50 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:This may have been asked before I forget but what if, when Liu Bei was serving Yuan Shao he managed to befriend Zhang He and managed to get Zhang He to come with him to Jing.
Could Liu Bei achieve more with the talent of Zhang He, and how would not having Zhang He effect Cao Cao?


I think Cao Cao had enough capable generals. Zhang He was a very good general and would have made a big difference for Liu Bei assuming he would have stayed loyal. Serving Liu Bei was usually a greater test of loyalty in those earlier days before he had a secure land of his own. If he stayed loyal then his presence could have helped to protect Jing. He's younger than Guan Yu but he I think he could have done a great job governing Jing or as Guan's second in command. On the actual battlefield I don't think Shu needed Zhang He earlier on. The other Shu men did their jobs well in Yi and Han Zhong. I don't think he would have done anything special at Yi Ling. But he would have been immensely useful during the northern campaigns. He could have led the van instead of Ma Su. That could have made all the difference. Not got the arrogance issue like Wei Yan either.

There is an argument for saying that some Wei generals despite their great talent and colourful records may have been opportunistic. They were serving an amazing leader who was 10 times richer than Liu Bei. I think for a guy in Liu's position he needed men of great personal loyalty not just ability for them to be of most value to him. This is where I doubt Zhang He. In that field I don't think he matches Guan, Zhang, Zhao, Zhuge.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:22 pm

@Elitemsh I agree with most of your points, but I do not think Zhang He would've been allowed to stay in JING. When Liu Bei lost Pang Tong he pretty much called for majority of the talented Shu officers to be moved over to help the assault on Liu Zhang. If Zhang He wasn't already deployed prior, he would've came in after the call for reinforcements.
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Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:13 am

Han wrote:Cao > Liu > Sun for the first two.

Cao > Sun > Liu for the last.


I agree with Han, these lists looks pretty solid.
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