The vs. Thread

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:04 am

I am also procrastinating so I ended up looking through the gallery. :lol:

What stood out to me regarding your suggestion was this comment which I snagged off of Wikipedia and which I'm sure you've seen before:

The paths leading up the mountain were narrow and dangerous to travel on. When Zhang Liao wanted to attack the rebels, his subordinates advised him against it because of the hazardous terrain. However, Zhang Liao said, "This is where one-to-one fighting will take place. Only the courageous can advance forward."


With the context being that Mei Cheng had faked a surrender then joined Chen Lan up there. While we're not quite talking gallery road levels of unsafe, it's clearly not the ideal place to do battle and I am guessing there wasn't a giant plateau up at the top to station even Han Dang's men, let alone the whole lot. But I think the main inference point of that anecdote is that, if you have a small number of men, you can hole yourself up some mountain and be relatively secure so long as a Zhang Liao type doesn't come around and start babbling about liquid courage.

I'd be a lot more behind the idea if Chen Lan or Mei Cheng had expressed any sort of big picture thinking. I'm not trying to imply that they were morons, but rather that they wouldn't know what to do if a huge army suddenly fell into their laps. Competent or not, at that point they were just running bandit armies and probably not really considering much beyond the next supply target to feed their men.

Now if these guys flip and Chen Lan/Mei Cheng quickly realize it's time to come down the mountain and claim some actual land with that infusion of troops, then you've got a problem on your hands. :shock:

But even then...I think the main issue would be such major defections with such large armies hitting Wei/Wu rather than the actual rise of a new major power, I am guessing Chen Lan didn't have the logistical wherewithal to go big time and we'd see another Li Jue/Guo Si drama of sorts play out.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:57 am

Zyzyfer wrote:I am also procrastinating so I ended up looking through the gallery. :lol:

What stood out to me regarding your suggestion was this comment which I snagged off of Wikipedia and which I'm sure you've seen before:

The paths leading up the mountain were narrow and dangerous to travel on. When Zhang Liao wanted to attack the rebels, his subordinates advised him against it because of the hazardous terrain. However, Zhang Liao said, "This is where one-to-one fighting will take place. Only the courageous can advance forward."


With the context being that Mei Cheng had faked a surrender then joined Chen Lan up there. While we're not quite talking gallery road levels of unsafe, it's clearly not the ideal place to do battle and I am guessing there wasn't a giant plateau up at the top to station even Han Dang's men, let alone the whole lot. But I think the main inference point of that anecdote is that, if you have a small number of men, you can hole yourself up some mountain and be relatively secure so long as a Zhang Liao type doesn't come around and start babbling about liquid courage.

I'd be a lot more behind the idea if Chen Lan or Mei Cheng had expressed any sort of big picture thinking. I'm not trying to imply that they were morons, but rather that they wouldn't know what to do if a huge army suddenly fell into their laps. Competent or not, at that point they were just running bandit armies and probably not really considering much beyond the next supply target to feed their men.

Now if these guys flip and Chen Lan/Mei Cheng quickly realize it's time to come down the mountain and claim some actual land with that infusion of troops, then you've got a problem on your hands. :shock:

But even then...I think the main issue would be such major defections with such large armies hitting Wei/Wu rather than the actual rise of a new major power, I am guessing Chen Lan didn't have the logistical wherewithal to go big time and we'd see another Li Jue/Guo Si drama of sorts play out.


Soon after the battle was over, someone wrote a Fu poem about it. 8-)

. . . I acknowledge that this has gotten a little out of hand. But I am going to make this work. Mainly because it's late and I'm tired. (And still procrastinating.)

Ok so in terms of the original scenario here, you're saying Cao Cao would just leave them alone? I just wanted to give them a terrain advantage, and equal troops, because I thought they'd need it – but you're right, that's not feasible, and it's way more interesting if they go right back down the mountain and start causing trouble. So let's go with that.

There's no question that trying to establish an actual state would be a disaster (these are not politicians), but I don't think Chen and Mei would have to make a land-grab in order to be a menace. Zang Ba, who just so happens to be here, managed to sustain a (technically) landless, apolitical bandit confederacy for over a decade without being under anyone's formal control.

Regardless, you're probably right, Chen and Mei wouldn't be able to maintain authority. But I don't think that really matters, because even though I think Chen/Mei must have been a credible threat for Cao Cao to throw all these guys at, they're still no match for the level of leadership and charisma of their new buddies, and I don't see any kind of Li Jue/Guo Si battles taking place to oust them. It's actually better (for the bandits) without them in command. (And don't say that they'd fall apart anyway because someone's feelings would get hurt!)

There doesn't need to be a long-term plan here: there's a powerful bandit army on the loose, and they're pillaging all over this part of the border between Wei and Wu, and they've got a stronghold up in Tianzhu. Tianzhu would still need to be taken out, even if it's no longer the main battleground. Cao Cao, or someone, is gonna have to field some officers here, and I wanna know who's up to the task!

Maybe this was better suited as a what-if than a versus match: would Cao Cao peel off from Jiangling early to take care of this threat? What would Wu do? Alas! Wrong thread. Also, I need a hobby.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:50 am

Ah. Well I think if Cao Cao suddenly had all of those high-level defections, not only would he pull out of Jiangling, he would also probably end up sending only his relatives. Losing key commanders like that would probably shake his faith in his subordinates. He'd probably send a second army there because he would need to A) stamp out the bandits and B) demonstrate his authority. But he would have the Xiahous and people like Cao Chun and Cao Ren leading the soldiers. And of course himself, I think this would warrant his undivided attention.

This is just conjecture, but I'd say that people like Zang Ba and Zhang Yan were able to do what they did more so because the country was fairly lawless and chaotic at the time, once Cao Cao had consolidated the north the days of roving bandits enjoying success came to an end for a lot of these regions. Yeah the defections would help their cause but I don't think Chen and Mei were going to change their fate, with much of the country becoming unified under a few major powers at that point. (A place like Jing would have been fantastic for them, though.)

Edit: Reading up a bit more, I think another issue is that you have Han Dang also rebelling against Wu. I am reading Zang Ba's profile in de Crespigny's Biographical Dictionary of Later Han and it mentions that Chen and Mei had a sort of alliance with Wu. Zang was sent to harass Han Dang but was repulsed, and then later attacked a contingent from Wu sent to aid the two rebels. If they have Wu's support, and Wei's generals defect with their troops, that's a huge deal for Wei, they would be a huge thorn in Cao Cao's side.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Cao Issam » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:51 pm

Hey there

take this
Sima Yi Sima Zhongda and Zhou Yu Zhou Gongjin

who is better ? both had borne the fate of their kingdoms in one day, hadn't they so go ahead
Cao Issam
Tyro
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:29 am

Sizing these two up is tricky because their novel and historical representations are quite distinctly different. I think Zhou Yu wins in a historical comparison (better politician and showed slightly more craftiness in battle) while Sima Yi comes out on top based on their novel interpretations (he is the only one who can even contend with Zhuge Liang, Zhou Yu gets utterly pwnt by the same guy until it kills him).
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:46 am

Welcome to the forum Cao Issam

It does depend what source and what are are talking about. Duel, battle, overall abilities?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14576
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Cao Issam » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:43 pm

let's talk historically
who is better as strategist ?

in my consideration Sima Zhongda may be better (not even a little)..the guy can be considered as a founder to the Jin dynasty,his intelligence that he did show while taking down the Cao members was awful surly he is one of the greatest ppl in that era nor Zhou Yu nor Zhuge Liang are better than him (not in the novel for sure)
Cao Issam
Tyro
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:45 am

I'd give it to Zhou Yu historically as a strategist. Sima Yi's wresting of power from Cao Shuang was pretty crafty but not really something I think is traditionally viewed under the canopy of what strategists do. It's more of a political maneuver.

What does Sima Yi have going for him? He trounced Meng Da, this was impressive. He managed to wait out Gongsun Yuan and defeat him, not really bold in my opinion although it worked. And he did the same thing with Zhuge Liang in their Northern Campaign encounter, it's a smart move but again, not a bold one.

Now to be fair Zhou Yu's own record isn't much more exciting. He wasn't even the guy who got Wu on its feet in terms of strategy, that was all Lu Fan and Sun Ce's core generals there. But he clearly demonstrated his big picture thinking with the whole vision of Wu pushing out into Yi. Jiangling has its highs and lows but Cao Ren put up a fierce resistance which makes his opponents look good. And then there is Chibi, Huang Gai's proposal but Zhou Yu ended up making it feasible.

So the way I see it, Sima Yi was a fine battle-to-battle commander and a pretty good politician at times...but also tended to fall off the radar entirely at times. Whereas Zhou Yu more excelled in the grand commander role, and apparently was also a good politician given the lack of court intrigues during his life. So in my opinion Zhou Yu edges out but I find both are somewhat overrated as strategists and are inflated in this regard by the novel. They accomplished a lot and deserve high reputations but I feel there are bigger "strategist" standouts.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby lorindir » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:33 am

Zyzyfer wrote:I'd give it to Zhou Yu historically as a strategist. Sima Yi's wresting of power from Cao Shuang was pretty crafty but not really something I think is traditionally viewed under the canopy of what strategists do. It's more of a political maneuver.

What does Sima Yi have going for him? He trounced Meng Da, this was impressive. He managed to wait out Gongsun Yuan and defeat him, not really bold in my opinion although it worked. And he did the same thing with Zhuge Liang in their Northern Campaign encounter, it's a smart move but again, not a bold one.

Now to be fair Zhou Yu's own record isn't much more exciting. He wasn't even the guy who got Wu on its feet in terms of strategy, that was all Lu Fan and Sun Ce's core generals there. But he clearly demonstrated his big picture thinking with the whole vision of Wu pushing out into Yi. Jiangling has its highs and lows but Cao Ren put up a fierce resistance which makes his opponents look good. And then there is Chibi, Huang Gai's proposal but Zhou Yu ended up making it feasible.

So the way I see it, Sima Yi was a fine battle-to-battle commander and a pretty good politician at times...but also tended to fall off the radar entirely at times. Whereas Zhou Yu more excelled in the grand commander role, and apparently was also a good politician given the lack of court intrigues during his life. So in my opinion Zhou Yu edges out but I find both are somewhat overrated as strategists and are inflated in this regard by the novel. They accomplished a lot and deserve high reputations but I feel there are bigger "strategist" standouts.



I think that the historical Zhou Yu was the best strategist of the period.
Better at politics, he predicted that Liu Zhang was inept and organized an expediction to take his lands.
Better at strategy, he analyzed every single flaw in Cao Cao huge army when everyone else was panicking (to surrender) or willing to give their life in battle (for pride), he was the man who placed those two opposites in one single and united front to oppose Cao Cao, he gave hope to those who wished to surrender and proved that was possible to win for those who wished to give their lives.
Better at politics, he knew that Liu Bei couldn't be trusted for the very first moment he heard about their "alliance" to oppose Cao Cao and his annalise proved correct.

In my humble opinion, if he had lived, Wu would have been able to put his "two kingdoms strategy" in reality, Liu Bei would have been a no one and there would have happen a battle under three fronts against Cao Cao.
Zhu Yu from Yi
Lu Su from Jing (with the help of a "vassal" Liu Bei)
Sun Quan from Yang
Ok your majesty, now, back to your room!
User avatar
lorindir
Initiate
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: Off screen!

Re: The vs. Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:06 am

I think it would have been very interesting to see how different history would have been if Zhou Yu had survived. His plan to attack Liu Zhang is fascinating even if I'm not convinced by it's feasibility. It certainly shows an ability to think outside the box. As for this question I would give it to Zhou Yu .

However the greatest strategist of the era has to be Jia Xu, never once did he give bad advise and in a career as long as his that is insane. As impressive as his service to Cao Cao is it's his campaigns with Zhang Xiu against Cao Cao that I find truly remarkable - who other than Zhang Xiu/Jia Xu managed to fight and beat Cao Cao repetitively with a much smaller force?
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6500
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved