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Ma Su and Jiang Wei.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:11 am
by Han Xin
Both Ma Su and Jiang Wei basically were Zhuge Liang students, did Zhuge Liang wanted to mold them into the same type of generals, or did he have different goal for them?


This is not a comparison thread, so please do not say who is better between these two.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:13 am
by Zhou Gongjin
I think Zhuge Liang's ultimate goal was to let Ma Su handle court affairs and let Jiang Wei do the battles.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:26 am
by Dennis
Zhou Gongjin wrote:I think Zhuge Liang's ultimate goal was to let Ma Su handle court affairs and let Jiang Wei do the battles.


At least things would have turned out better had Ma Su decided to stay at the courts instead of riding off into battle.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:30 am
by Zhang Liao17
I think he wanted to mold Jiang Wei into Zhao Yun's successor. Someone who could help him with tasks such as leading the Van after Zhao Yun past away. For Ma Su it is harder to tell but he might have wanted to make him a mini-Jiang Wan.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:32 am
by Anshi
Zhou Lide wrote:At least things would have turned out better had Ma Su decided to stay at the courts instead of riding off into battle.


And who sent him off into battle again? :mrgreen:

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:35 am
by Dennis
Anshi wrote:
Zhou Lide wrote:At least things would have turned out better had Ma Su decided to stay at the courts instead of riding off into battle.


And who sent him off into battle again? :mrgreen:


Mr. Sean... how unscrupulous of you to suggest that Kongming makes mistakes... :x
J/K

Yes, Xuande said don't trust him, but Kongming told him to go anyways... Kongming ... you let me down.... NEVER!!~

Re: Ma Su and Jiang Wei.

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:54 am
by Mega Zarak
Han Xin wrote:Both Ma Su and Jiang Wei basically were Zhuge Liang students, did Zhuge Liang wanted to mold them into the same type of generals, or did he have different goal for them?


This is not a comparison thread, so please do not say who is better between these two.


There wasn't much mentioned about Ma Su being Zhuge Liang's student (except maybe in the novel). In Xiang Yang Ji, it was recorded that Ma Su treated Zhuge Liang like his father and he said that before he died. Ma Su shared the same viewpoint as Zhuge Liang regarding the Nanman campaign and it was merely a coincidence.

Also, it was not explicitly mentioned that Zhuge Liang accepted Jiang Wei as his student though he was full of admiration for Jiang Wei and was instrumental in his rapid promotion in Shu.

IMO, they were not mold by Zhuge Liang intentionally to further his directions. Rather, Jiang Wei was greatly influenced by Zhuge Liang and he himself might even strive to outdo his predecessor (thus launching all those worthless campaigns). As for Ma Su, his timely comment regarding the treatment of Nanman might be the factor that impress Zhuge Liang and thus caused him to be tasked with a great military responsibility even though he was more on the civil side.

Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 6:37 pm
by Zhang of Yen
Zhuge Liang apparntly will regually take a single task as a whole persons capabilty. If I am correct he takes ma su's Naman plan as well "Ma Su" also the battle of Jie Ting he thinks that the battle is "Ma Su" and excutes him. With Jiang Wei he thought he was fanatastic when he was beaten by him. Jiang Wei never really did battle intill after Zhuge died, so Zhuge Liang based his thoughts of Jiang Wei right out of that one battle.

Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 10:16 pm
by Pang Shiyuan
Ma Su and Jiang Wei? I don't really see much differences between them.

1. They're both thick headed, Ma Su, for camping above ground at Jieting, and not listening to Wang Ping...
Jiang Wei, for draining Shu's resources just to pursue a hopeless Northern Campaign.

2. Ma Su and Jiang Wei were hailed as the geniuses of their time...well, Zhuge Liang did anyway...

3. Both men caused the downfall of Shu one way or another.

Only one difference. Jiang Wei achieved much more than Ma Su did.

I have a nagging suspicion that Ma Su was promoted only because his brother Ma Liang was a founding officer of Shu-Han...

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:34 am
by James
Pang Tong wrote:1. They're both thick headed, Ma Su, for camping above ground at Jieting, and not listening to Wang Ping...
Jiang Wei, for draining Shu's resources just to pursue a hopeless Northern Campaign.

Although it is easy to compare the two in this manner I submit that Jiang Wei was far superior to Ma Su. Jiang Wei, even though he didn't seem to understand the long-term consequences of his actions (constant military campaigns) was quite competent on the battlefield and at the very least knew how to hold his own. Ma Su got one big chance and blew it completely. He didn't make a small mistake, but instead completely cost the campaign with his bone-headed actions. I do not think the two can really be compared.