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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:13 pm
by Antiochus
Ma Su was supposed to be Zhuge Liang succesor so he would have end up being prime minister. But after is defeat at Jie Ting he got executed.(for the best of SHU) And Jiang Wei was suposed to be Zhao Yun succesor. But Ma Su got killed so Jiang Wei did is job as Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun succesor.

Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:14 pm
by Zhilong
Perhaps he was hoping Shu would have a great General in Jiang Wei. Jiang Wei was the general that ZL was not and was relatively able, good fighter with some brains. Ma Su could have complemented Jiang Wei well with his long term planning and strategies, just don't let him on the battlefield. Maybe similar to a combo like Sun Tzu & Wu Zixu where their combined abilities exceed their sum.

Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:44 pm
by Ricky
They were both terrible. Ma Su for being to ignorant to even bother to follow his masters orders. This is exactly why he was executed. Jiang Wei in history was hated by the people of Shu. For his poor leadership, that caused great casualties with Wei. He wasn't all around friendly too. I think Ma Su was better. Despite his arrogance...

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:07 am
by Antiochus
Antiochus wrote:Ma Su was supposed to be Zhuge Liang succesor so he would have end up being prime minister. But after is defeat at Jie Ting he got executed.(for the best of SHU) And Jiang Wei was suposed to be Zhao Yun succesor. But Ma Su got killed so Jiang Wei did is job as Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun succesor.


After reading that old post I did, I realise that I really lacked subtelty back then...

I will now reconsider my position.

Ma Su had talent, he was just given an assignement were he had to lead, while all he knew was how to advise (which he had been good at during the southern campaings). Maybe he would have been a great remplacement for Kongming if he had gained more maturity and more training as a leader before being given a crucial assignment...

Jiang Wei had the same problem. He would have probably been an awesome advisor, a great general, but he was not fit to lead the full Shu armies. He was smart, but what Shu needed was a man who would have been on better terms with the court and who would have valued a more delicate approach than Jiang Wei's (which consisted of invading, invading and then some more invading).

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:30 pm
by Terranigma Freak
Jiang Wei in history was hated by the people of Shu.


You do realize they have two (I think it was two) different shrines worshiping Jian Wei, right? I saw one of the temples in some tour guide show thingy on TV some time ago.

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:43 pm
by Ricky
I've read twice about him in KMA in history. He was a terrible general.
Casualty rate was very high, the region west of Long Shan was destabilized and Jiang Wei suffered heavy criticisms from the populace.

Example of him being hated by Shu. He even goes back to Wei again.

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:03 pm
by Dong Zhou
The phrase there was hated , not now, but during his own time, the people of Shu hated him for what he had done. That the views of their descendants have changed to respect and love doesn't change that

Ricky, not sure it is fair to say he went back to Wei, circumstance forced him to serve Wei before he took part in that revolt. Excellent analysis Antiochus

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:17 pm
by Ricky
Perhaps not. I should have been more clear on that. Though he does get killed by Wei, if it makes Shu-ists happy. >.>
His wive and children were killed as well. (Just girls.)
It wasn't clearly his choice to join Wei from the start. He just wasn't as trusted anymore, and left them and visted Zhuge Liang.

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:16 pm
by Foif
My view, is similar to some others in this thread...

I think that Ma Su was an excellent advisor, someone who could really pull out the commanding general in times of crisis, but his loss was mainly Zhuge Liangs mistake of overestimating Ma Su.

Jiang Wei i feel similar. An good general, a bright strategist, but he was put in a position where he didnt belong. He needs to always be in a collar, not the one holding the leash.

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:46 pm
by Dong Zhou
His wife and children getting killed was quite normal but it was his choice to take up the job in Wei and defect. Also was have you had _________________
_______________________? in the last two posts?