Ma Su and Jiang Wei.

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Unread postby Ricky » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:50 pm

I guess since that was far back in the days. Also that's just my signature I'll just change it, to prevent confusion.
First upload.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:58 am

Umm... this is completely off topic... but why is everyone writting "teh" instead of "the". Is it some Vocabulary and Grammar Apocalypse? Inside joke that I've missed in my two days of absence?

EDIT: I see, it's a forced redirection. How dull and juvenile...
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Unread postby Antiochus » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:15 am

Thank god, I was wondering if it was just my PC that was no longer able to read...

Whats happening anyway?
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Unread postby Ricky » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:19 am

Off topic: The admin panel got messed-up and this happend. Lady Wu says that this happend last time when the admins were demoted. I don't know how in the world this will get fixed. I'm just glad my laptop wasn't breaking on me. Then I noticed people saying teh other than T-H-E.

In topic: Yeah both bad generals, bad indeed.
First upload.
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Unread postby Little_Phoenix » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:32 am

i think you all not fair to Ma Su. I think he's genius but the problem is he's less experience in the field. Zhuge Liang knows that Ma Su less experience but he send him to fight against....Sima Yi!!..crazy! i think this is Zhuge Liang's biggest mistake.
an expert warlord against less experience general...
i prefer sending Zhao Yun or Wang Ping alone instead. Wei Yan,Zhang Bao,and Guan Xing to agressive.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:23 pm

Little_Phoenix wrote:i prefer sending Zhao Yun or Wang Ping alone instead.


Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi were already tied up in the diversionary attack. They were defeated by Cao Zhen although Zhao Yun was much more responsible and gathered all the troops and supplies before guarding the rear of the retreat himself. By contrast Ma Su fled for his life and it was Wang Ping who cleaned up the mess.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:49 am

I would put the blame on the teacher. Jiang Wei's campaigns can be seen as a direct result of Zhuge Liang's campaigns. While Zhuge Liang accomplished very little in terms of long term gains he continued to launch them. To a student of his teaching, that would imply that constant campaigning is a good idea. Ma Su suffered because Zhuge Liang put him in a position that he did not belong. Ma Su had not led many armies into battle and was not a battle trained commander. His specialty was in the creation of strategies. While that is fine on the home front when Zhuge Liang can pick and choose what strategies he likes and dislikes, when put on his own he is bound to think of "superior" strategies. A trustworthy commander who can follow orders should have been put in command of Jie Ting, not Ma Su.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:42 am

In Zhuge Liang's defence about Jiang Wei, he also didn't campaign as much as Jiang Wei did, he rested and help run the civil side at home before he marched, he also dealt with political enemies with ruthlessness. Whereas Jiang Wei just campaigned and campaigned and campaigned.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:53 pm

Zhuge Liang campaigned on the average of a campaign every 16.6 months.

Jiang Wei campaigned on an average of a campaign every 17.7 months.

I'd say the student takes after the master pretty well.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:48 pm

Lu Kang wrote:I would put the blame on the teacher. Jiang Wei's campaigns can be seen as a direct result of Zhuge Liang's campaigns. While Zhuge Liang accomplished very little in terms of long term gains he continued to launch them. To a student of his teaching, that would imply that constant campaigning is a good idea.


If you teach someone you do not imply - you tell them directly. Implying is indirect and non-explicit by nature. Given that ZL's works are described as accessible and written in plain language and that pertaining to the military his commands were "clear and majestic" i think your statement does not hold as it is uncharacteristic of ZL to speak in riddles and have JW guess.

For it to be direct ZL would have explicitly named Jiang Wei as a successor to his military command and given him orders to continue his campaigns. In fact, one source in SGZ says that ZL told them to "guard the dynasty well but don't return here" (paraphrase from memory). If Zl intended for JW to succeed his military command he would have said so, so i think that shows that ZL wanted to leave behind a notable general for the next generation of Shu officers rather than to have him complete his work.

Zhuge Liang campaigned on the average of a campaign every 16.6 months.

Jiang Wei campaigned on an average of a campaign every 17.7 months.

I'd say the student takes after the master pretty well.


I present a more sophisticated analysis.

Total Number of Engagements per kingdom during his period

In the 11 years that he was commander in chief he launched 5 campaigns against Wei and fought one defensive so that is a total of 6 engagements pertaining to the two other kingdoms.

By contrast Wei attacked Shu once and Wu 3 times. It fought defensively against Shu 5 times and Wu 6 times. Thus Wei was involved in 15 engagements during this time period.

Wu attacked Wei 6 times and defended against Wei 3 times so that is a total of 9 engagements.

Thus it is plain to see that Shu was involved in far less engagements than the other 2 states.

Troop Numbers

ZL only marshalled 100k troops on his first and last campaign which were spaced 6 years apart. Aside from his first campaign where his vanguard was defeated at Jieting, his army always retreated intact from the campaign.

Campaign 2 lasted around 20 days and was in response to the shift of troops to the border with Wu by Wei so he sought to seek advantage in the opportunity. It was said his troop number for this campaign was one of his lowest, around 20-30k. When the advantage was gone he retreated.

After the first campaign, ZL was mindful to rest the army and he decreased the men in arms despite his officers telling him to increase his troops. In addition to the lack of time to prepare for campaign 2, this was the reason for the lower troop number. It was stated that the ppl soon forgot about his defeat in the first campaign. Contrast this to JW who is not mindful to rest the ppl and eventually they complain in an unprecedented move to force him stop his campaigns.

In the third campaign, it was limited and rather short and ended after the seizure of Wudu and Yinping. They were modest long term gains but once the 3 kingdoms scenario was set up until Deng Ai's breakthrough there was no one with significantly better gains against the other kingdoms so he fares well on this count compared to his peers.

Campaign 4 was a mid-high level mobilisation.

Campaign 5 was the second and last time he marshalled his max number of troops.

The fact he did no use full mobilisations every campaign but rested his troops and that the ppl missed his rule immediately after his death shows even the ppl felt he was considerate of them. Contrast this with JW's 9 campaigns which led to a loss of popular support and oft sizable defeats and it is clear that there is a marked difference.

Thus i don't think it would be reasonable to say that ZL directly taught JW to launch campaigns in that manner since there is no evidence for that whatsoever nor could even a routine observation of ZL's campaigns indirectly "imply" that. Hence i feel that your statement is rather eroneous.
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