Cao Cao, was he such a bad guy?

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Cao Cao, was he such a bad guy?

Unread postby Guan Suo » Sat May 17, 2003 12:35 pm

i have been reading SGYY agiain and SGZ's and i think that Cao Cao has been made into a backstabbing tyrant in the book while in history i think he was loyal to the Han and wanted peace in the land.If he did control the Emperor i doubt that he did it for Evil ways, just so that he could destroy the rebels from the land(Liu Bei and Sun Quan)

what are your opinions?
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Unread postby waynethegame » Sat May 17, 2003 12:50 pm

Well, my opinion is biased since Cao Cao is my favorite person in that time period and somewhat of my role model :)

I think that he wasn't as evil as the SGYY makes him out to be, but he WAS a completely ruthless person who would stop at nothing to get his ultimate goal. Kind of like what businesspeople should be; do whatever is necessary to dominate the competition and win out in the end. Cao seemed to feel that the ends justify the means, and if you think about it he was justified in almost all cases of his "cruelties". Dong Cheng, Ma Teng and the rest wanted to kill him; would you rather let them suceed or get them before they get you? Lu Bu was a signifigant threat and needed to be dealt with. Yuan Shao was acting under the 'Girdle Decree' and would have attacked Xu Chang if not taken care of.. you get the point.

IMO the Simas were more villains than Cao Cao was (sorry to you Sima fans!) because they deliberatly betrayed the trust of the Cao family which was the ONLY reason they had any success to begin with. Cao Cao was forced into acting against Emperor Xian in some cases because he (Xian) was a weakling who IMO was probably saying to himself "I'm the Emperor but I have no power and never did since I took the throne.. Cao isn't the man Dong Zhuo was so maybe I can call him a traitor to get rid of him." (Meaning that Dong Zhuo would have killed Xian if he tried that; Cao was a lot more loyal), and thus moaned about Cao Cao being oppressive and a tyrant.

So, in conclusion and again IMO, Cao was no more of a villain than nearly anyone else in the Three Kingdoms era, he was just a lot more resourceful and knew that you had to take drastic measures to ensure peace. If those same principles were applied to the current day and age, there would be a lot less problems, I think.
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Sat May 17, 2003 3:44 pm

Cao Cao was just portrayed as an enemy in SGYY because he was the rival to the "hero of the time" Liu Bei. Cao Cao did commit some horrible acts but it wasn't anything such as mass massacres. He just saw oppopportunity and took it and in many cases it was against other lords and it was a kill such as against MA Teng that was maybe a little unfair. I dont think that he deserves to be called a villain for winning though.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Sat May 17, 2003 7:16 pm

They show Cao Cao as a monster because the hero is his rival, Liu Bei. If Cao Cao have done bad things, the most of them were nessesary to accomplish his objective.
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Re: Cao Cao, was he such a bad guy?

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sun May 18, 2003 4:32 am

Guan Suo wrote:i have been reading SGYY agiain and SGZ's and i think that Cao Cao has been made into a backstabbing tyrant in the book while in history i think he was loyal to the Han and wanted peace in the land.If he did control the Emperor i doubt that he did it for Evil ways, just so that he could destroy the rebels from the land(Liu Bei and Sun Quan)

what are your opinions?

The thing about Cao Cao's bio is that it's biased, and it leaves out negative things about Mengde that appear in other biographies. In his bio it leaves out how he plotted Zhang Xiu's death. It also downplays his loss at Chi Bi and Han Zhong. His massacre at Xuzhou is left out and the time he ordered Cao Ren to massacre Wan is also left out.

Personally I think Cao Cao was a bad guy. He did too plenty of good things, but he was willing to committ terrible deeds for his own gain. I can't ignore the bad things he has done, and I think he was a butcher.
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Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Sun May 18, 2003 7:17 pm

I think Cao Cao was completely villified in the novel. Chen Lin's(Right?) letter of propaganda which claimed all of these terrible things also made him look bad - graverobbing, for instance, was done by basically every single person in the time, and so was plotting deaths and everything like that. Cao Cao, I believe, did all the bad things necessary of his success, but so did every other person, including the heroified Liu Bei. I think that Cao Cao had better intentions and did more good for his own people than the others, so, I say even including the other acts not in his biography, he was no villain. And talking about doing bad things, also in the novel, Liu Bei uses his own people as human shields so that he can escape - but it's looked at like "he was such a good person, the villiagers used themselves as human shields so that he could escape".

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Unread postby Looney Dutchy » Mon May 19, 2003 10:28 am

I don't think so. It was exagerated(probably spelled this wrong). Mainly because he was the rival of Liu Bei and he was the good guy. But that is what I think. :shock:
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Unread postby Zhou Zero » Mon May 19, 2003 4:32 pm

CAO CAO A VILLAIN?!?! As someone said before, he was just accopmlishing what needed to be done. Ruthless, but aren't we all inside? Is anyone truly pious and nice? Cao Cao was really cool and a great strategist, I think that Liu Bei was kind of overrated. He was dumb enough to be tricked into staying with the Sun family and growing fat, old, and stupid! Thank God he managed to escape. Anyway, Cao Cao isn't all bad, but remember: History is written by the winners.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon May 19, 2003 8:20 pm

"There are three main reasons why Cao Cao is cast as a villian. He became a wanted man after he failed to assasinate Dong Zhuo. He decided to put up for a night at his uncle's lodging during fleeing back to his hometown. Due to a misunderstanding or misinterpretation on Cao Cao's part upon hearing the sharpening/clapping of knives he thought they were preparing to kill him and so launched a pre-emptive strike and rushed into the room and killed all of them. In fact his host were preparing to slaughter a pig to prepare a feast for their guests.

Secondly due to the fact that the Emperor sought Cao Cao's protection not long after the dismise of Dong Zhuo, Cao Cao was able to use the Emperor as his puppet to order the dukes and princes about the country. Thus Cao Cao is perceived as not much difference from the tyrant Dong Zhuo. Last of all, Cao Cao caused the death of the famous physician, Hua Tuo. Due to Cao Cao's suspicious nature he thought Hua Tuo was out to harm him when the great physician suggested the remedy of operating on the head to cure Cao Cao's head ailments. Hua Tuo was locked up in jail and died soon after."

i get this bio from here now u see why he is evil
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue May 20, 2003 3:53 pm

Slaughtering 10,000 innocent civilians simply because they lived in Xuzhou seems pretty mean to me. Not to mention burying alive 70,000 P.O.W.'s.
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