If Sun Quan and Liu Bei were friends...

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If Wu and Shu were allied from day one, what would happen to Wei?

Wei would have certainly lost.
24
38%
Wei might have been defeated.
18
28%
I am not sure...
4
6%
Wei would probably have held together.
11
17%
Wei was still too strong for them to do anything.
4
6%
Other... (explain)
3
5%
 
Total votes : 64

If Sun Quan and Liu Bei were friends...

Unread postby James » Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:20 am

This is something I was thinking about a while back with Anshi, if I remember correctly.

If Sun Quan and Liu Bei had allied with each other and the kingdoms had cooperated the way they did after Liu Bei's death, what would have happened?

Would they have been able to overpower Wei? Remember, if they are allies many people like Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Liu Bei, Lu Meng and more might not have died as soon as they did. Shu would also not have suffered a horrible defeat at Yi Ling that forever hurt them. What do you think?

I think they might have had a chance.
Last edited by James on Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:26 am

They were friends for a while, but because of Shu not returning Jingzhou and being petty about everything the relationship went sour. Sun Quan offered that his son, the crown prince would marry Guan Yu's daughter, but Guan Yu gravely insulted Wu be being really rude to this offer.
Shu and Wu combined, without Yiling, would have crushed Wei.
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Unread postby Dennis » Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:07 am

Hmmm... I think it's a question of population. I don't think Shu and Wu had the manpower to get Wei even if they did stick together although I would like to think otherwise. Wu, and Shu's natural defenses, are indeed Wei's conversly, because there are two sides two every river, and two sides to every mountain. I'm not %100 sure though, Wu had a lot of talent, at the time of Yiling: Lu Xun.
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Unread postby Anshi » Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:08 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Shu and Wu combined, without Yiling, would have crushed Wei.


I disagree...maybe if they were part of the same army, one country, with no political division, then yes they could probably defeat (not crush) Wei. But they are still two seperate nations and their capitals are on opposite sides of the country...meaning the line of communication is extremely long (this is what plagued their alliance from day one...they could never time their attacks perfectly).
Besides, it's not like Wei had no talent, and it isn't like they weren't being attacked by Shu and Wu at the same time all the time anyway. They still constantly repulsed both of their attacks.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:43 am

The alliance wouldn't last. Wu wanted Jingzhou too bad. Separately neither of them stands a chance but together they would pose a threat. I just don't think they could have stayed on the same page if you know what I mean.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Sun Jun 16, 2002 4:30 am

Why wasn't there an other option? :lol:

IMO, all three Kingdoms could beat the other 2 and unify China. Shu IMO was strongest during the time of PangTong/FaZheng+Liu Bei+Zhuge Liang, and only decline when only Zhuge Liang was there by himself.

Wu IMO, had the commanders and field strategists to do it, but they lack a Zhuge Liang in their camp (yes, you heard it right Han Xin said tha Wu needed a Zhuge Liang).

Wei had everything, Sima Yi was a Zhuge Liang for Wei and they had many good commanders and generals that match the other two kingdoms two, unfortunately Sima Yi wasn't given that much of power to do what he like...
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Jun 16, 2002 10:32 am

Zhang Liao17 wrote:The alliance wouldn't last. Wu wanted Jingzhou too bad. Separately neither of them stands a chance but together they would pose a threat. I just don't think they could have stayed on the same page if you know what I mean.


If Liu Bei would have given back Jingzhou when Wu requested then there wouldn't be a problem at all.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Jun 16, 2002 12:08 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:If Liu Bei would have given back Jingzhou when Wu requested then there wouldn't be a problem at all.


I don't think it's as simple as that. Liu Bei wouldn't stop at Jing Zhou (he wanted Liang Zhou too) and I bet Sun Quan wouldn't neither (cos he wanted Yi Zhou).
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:01 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:If Liu Bei would have given back Jingzhou when Wu requested then there wouldn't be a problem at all.


I don't think it's as simple as that. Liu Bei wouldn't stop at Jing Zhou (he wanted Liang Zhou too) and I bet Sun Quan wouldn't neither (cos he wanted Yi Zhou).


I don't agree, if Sun Quan would get northern Jingzhou and Shu would get the north of Han Zhong back then they both have good land, eventually Wu will then outgrow Shu and probably consume it. Which is the best possible outcome.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:47 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I don't agree, if Sun Quan would get northern Jingzhou and Shu would get the north of Han Zhong back then they both have good land, eventually Wu will then outgrow Shu and probably consume it. Which is the best possible outcome.


Like you said, Wu would probably consume Shu (they had design on Ba Shu all along) and all men in Shu knew of such a motive or at least they could smell it. As such, my point was that the problem would not be resolve simply by Liu Bei returning Jing Zhou to Wu. Additionally, Wu had its own problems such as the minority Shan Yue tribes which often hindered its military progress (seen from example of Sun Quan's invasion of Jing Zhou before Chi Bi). If Shu had a great set of domestic policies under the leadership of Zhuge Liang, it would be difficult for Wu to outgrow Shu within several years.
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