Our treatment of Zhuge Liang

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Our treatment of Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:51 am

Here's another old favourite topic of mine I thought I'd resurrect once more...

I have heard many derogatory things about Zhuge Liang before and thought I'd refute some of those points...

1. Zhuge Liang was a power hungry politician.

Fact: Zhuge Liang's only benefit from his career as Shu prime minister were the plots of land he was rewarded with by the Lius.

more specifically:

Quote from an earlier post of mine last year
Under Zhuge's administration, Shu, which was weak, became a rich kingdom. He did not amass wealth for himself. He told Liu Shan: "I have 800 mulberry trees and 15 qing of farmland. These are more than sufficient to feed and clothe my children. Other than these, I have no other property." (1 qing = 0.6667 ha)


Excerpt of Zhuge's SGZ bio
Earlier, Zhuge Liang had memorialised to the Latter Lord: "This subject has eight hundred mulberry trees and fifteen hectares of land, more than enough to clothe and feed my relatives. When this subject is out on assignment, my clothing and food are provided for by the bureaucracy. This is the sole benefit of my post; there are no other sources of income. On the day this subject dies, in accountability to Your Majesty's kindness, my family shall have no extra yarn nor property than is needed." And after his death, it was as he had said.


The political power of Shu was not completely in the hands of Zhuge Liang. Men like Fei Wei, Guo Youzhi and Dong Yun were recommended by Zhuge to Liu Shan to jointly advise Liu on court matters and Xiang Chong was recommended to manage millitary affairs.

Also, the reason for Zhuge Liang wielding near complete power of Shu was attributed to the fact that Liu Shan was still young and inexperienced when Liu Bei died.

2. Zhuge Liang was stubborn and blamed his failures on lesser officers.

Fact: Zhuge Liang accepted all responsibility for Ma Su's loss at Jieting, his failure at capturing Chen Cang. He even went to the extent to memorialise for a demotion due to his carelessness, but was reinstated with the excuse that the siege of Chen Cang was not a complete failure, considering that Wang Shuang, a valiant Wei officer was slain.

3. Zhuge Liang was not the genius he was purported to be in SGYY.

Fact: The invention of the wooden oxen for faster transport of provisions and the invention of the mechanised crossbow were indeed credited to Zhuge.

In his SGZ bio, Sima Yi checked Zhuge's barracks and encampments after the latter's death and remarked "Indeed he was a genius of the Empire!".

4. Zhuge Liang had was an untalented strategist.

That isn't completely true, certainly Zhuge's political skill can be compared to men like Guan Zhong or even Xiao He. Yet his failings at invading Chang An were often associated to the superiority of the Wei officers guarding the western borders, the lack of talented officers of the calibre of men like Han Xin, Wu Zixu and Wang Jian in Shu's ranks, and sometimes because of sudden changes in weather.

The war manuals compiled by Zhuge Liang held some merit in grasping the concepts of strategic planning and are still studied by scholars to this day.
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Re: Our treatment of Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:44 pm

Well, no one can ever accuse me of making derogatory comments about Zhuge Liang. :lol:

Anyways, you bring up some very good points and the typical complaints I hear about Zhuge Liang. However, this one bothers me the most, and I hear it mainly from those who have just made the first leap from the novel:

Pang Shiyuan wrote:3. Zhuge Liang was not the genius he was purported to be in SGYY.


It's not Zhuge Liang's fault that he was made out to be some kind of God-like, invicible figure in a novel written by someone he'd never even known or met. "Oh? You mean he didn't actually evoke the stars or borrow winds to destroy his enemy or predict the future? He must have sucked then, historically." Oh yeah? Name someone who was able to do all that stuff historically!!!:roll: Let's say I wrote a book and made Cao Cao out to be some kind of diety with magical powers. Just because stuff I said was fictional, should that take away from his actual, historical deeds and contributions, even though they are obviously going to pale in comparison to my supernatural depiction of him? I don't think so.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:46 pm

i agree Zhuge liang is not god. I mean no body in this world is perfect. at least Zhuge Liang died because he was ill and was still fighting for shu.
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Unread postby Pei Yuanshao » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:13 pm

Zhuge Liang is my hero. He was, in my eyes, the most talented people in the three kingdoms period and I think if it were not for him Shu would have plumeted before they could even stand a chance. It just kinda freaked me out the way he knew everything before it happened.......
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:40 am

Pei Yuanshao wrote:Zhuge Liang is my hero. He was, in my eyes, the most talented people in the three kingdoms period and I think if it were not for him Shu would have plumeted before they could even stand a chance. It just kinda freaked me out the way he knew everything before it happened.......


Probably the most talented politician, but he was certainly not up to the standards of strategists like Lu Xun, Lu Meng, Xun Yu or Jia Xu.
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Unread postby SoSZ Patch 0506C » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:01 am

Zhuge really gets treated like crap in these forums (second only to Guan Yu). People here do realise that most of the historical info on ZL is biased, considerin that the guy who wrote the SGZ was a Zhuge hater. Theres literally nothin about his military campaigns anywhere. Not enough anyway, compared to others. Its like Zhuge went in, then went out. End of story. Nothing in between. Victory goes to the victors, so Kongming got treated badly.
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Unread postby Sam » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:10 pm

Several warnings will be given out for the events in this thread. Ron, I'll close this thread, clean it up later, and re-open it for further discussion once all the pointless posts have been deleted.

-Closed for the time being.
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Unread postby Sam » Fri May 02, 2003 4:35 pm

Ok, I have cleaned up this topic and it is now open for further discussion. If anything like last time occurs again, there will be more warnings, and possibly bans.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri May 02, 2003 5:53 pm

Pang Shiyuan wrote:Probably the most talented politician, but he was certainly not up to the standards of strategists like Lu Xun, Lu Meng, Xun Yu or Jia Xu.


How do you know that for certain? ZL had successes and failures just as these men did.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri May 02, 2003 9:07 pm

Notorious P.I.K. wrote:How do you know that for certain? ZL had successes and failures just as these men did.


When did Jia Xu fail?
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