How would you justify Wei Yan's actions?

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How would you justify Wei Yan's actions?

Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:43 pm

Zhuge Liang set out on his 7th Northern Campaign, having failed previously due to poor delegation of duties amongst his officers, lack of resources, and downright bad luck. On the last campaign, Zhuge fell ill due to overwork and died subsequently...

Zhuge's mantle of millitary power was then passed on to Jiang Wei and Yang Yi according to his wishes. Both decided to withdraw back to Shu, lick their wounds and rebuild their forces. Wei Yan, a decorated veteran of Shu wanted to continue waging war on Chang An and hinted at signs of rebellion NOT towards Shu, but towards Jiang and Yang's authority.

Wei Yan was later executed on charges of treason and mutiny.

To this day, this issue is still one of the most debateable topics on most RTK forums...so i thought I'd revive the topic once more for good measure.
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:01 am

I feel that he was very loyal, but Yang Yi pressured him into doing what he did. I feel he showed a little rebelion, but other than that he did nothing wrong
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Unread postby Yorak » Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:47 am

I think that Wei Yan had a pretty good reason for wanting to stay. It was the first campaign since the first one that was actually going well, and then they want to turn around and leave just because someone died? Hell no! Press the attack!

But, since Yang Yi didn't get along with Wei Yan at all, he used the opportunity to get rid of him.
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Unread postby Zanbatou » Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:51 am

I personaly believed Wei Yan felt that if Kongming had failed so many times on the northern campaigns after seeing instant success everywhere else, victory was imposible. However, had he kept loyalty, the Shu Han ould probobly gain a little more ground on Wei.
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Unread postby SoSZ Patch 0506C » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:27 am

Well i think Wei Yan wanted to take advantage of Kongmings death for Shu. In real history every battle the Kongming and Zhongda met, Shu was victorious in battle. It was cuse Zhongda used the his i'll hide away in my fort strategy that Zhuge was unable to gain a decisive victory. That and the fact that bad politics on some occasions ruined the northern campaigns. Anyway, on the fifith campaign, Kongming had built a near permanent fort in Wei. This time they also avioded supply problems by farming the end near them. Shu was gonna be in for the long haul. Now when Zhuge died, i think Wei Yan wanted to send this information to Wei as quickly as possible. He probably intended to remain at camp in Wuzhang plains. With the information of Kongmings death passed on to Sima Yi, he would be man enough to lead out his army into combat, thinking that he now had the advantage. This is when Wei Yan would strike. However Yang Yi and Jiang Wei saw fit to do otherwise. So i understnad why Wei Yan did wat he did. He thought it was a good opportunity to strike the enemy while he is down.
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Unread postby Lance » Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:29 pm

I personally think that Wei Yan was relatively loyal. He never gave Kong-Ming problems on any of the campaigns, and his only screw-up was getting too far ahead during the initial campaign on Yizhou, which can be attributed to being new and not yet used to taking orders(Wei Yan seems to be one better suited to giving orders, not taking them, so I assume he had to adjust). After ZGL's death, he ignores Yang Yi and presses for a continuation of the campaign. There is no telling as to what would result had Wei Yan got his way, but Yang Yi, who had long been his rival, seized the chance to brand him a rebel and traitor, and had him killed.
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Unread postby CK » Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:49 pm

Imho, there are many reasons why Wei Yan did what he did and of course, it was never treason in nature. Being a general who is capable and fought countless battles on his side, the death of Zhuge Liang, while to be mourned, is nothing. Besides, he had always been the second in command and whenever the President dies, the VP takes over and I believe that was what he did.

Now, The_Phat_one had argued that he believed that Sima Yi may come out of his tents to wage battle and hopefully Wei Yan could take advantage of this exploitable situation. I somewhat agree with the taking advantage part though not so of the reason why. Certainly, instead of retreating, there is that element of surprise to attack Sima Yi's troops. Of course we have to understand that Wei Yan often had autonomous control of separate troops and I wonder how much he knew that he could not take a force to ambush/attack Wei.

In any case, I do not like Yang Yi. He is a selfish person. :roll:
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Unread postby Zanbatou » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:58 am

You give Wei Yan too much credit in strategy, he could not outwit Sima Yi. Besides, even though Yang Yi hated his guts, Wei Yan should'ver known this and taken some precousions rather then revolting. He could've simply pleeded his case to Jiang Wei who would've swiftly dealt with the problem. Or, more likely, he could've assassinated Yang Yi.

This being said, Yang Yi was not thinking for the good of his kingdom and should be to blame.
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Mon Apr 28, 2003 6:59 am

Zambato wrote:You give Wei Yan too much credit in strategy, he could not outwit Sima Yi. Besides, even though Yang Yi hated his guts, Wei Yan should'ver known this and taken some precousions rather then revolting. He could've simply pleeded his case to Jiang Wei who would've swiftly dealt with the problem. Or, more likely, he could've assassinated Yang Yi.

This being said, Yang Yi was not thinking for the good of his kingdom and should be to blame.


I doubt that would work...to plot an assassination attempt would be far too risky for a general like Wei Yan and if uncovered would have irreversibly damaged his reputation; Wei Yan wouldn't have stooped so low.

Also, why should a higher ranked general like Wei bother to complain about a junior officer like Yang Yi to Jiang Wei - who is also another junior and lower ranking general? I suppose pride does come into the issue...but I'm not sure to what extend Wei Yan's pride went, whether it be as bad as Guan Yu's or whether he was in actuality a modest and humble person.

One thing I can't get over is the fact that Wei Yan's bio in SGZ was compiled along with Mi Fang, Liu Feng and Li Yan's, all of whom were considered traitors to Shu at some point (Li Yan's case is another debatable topic).
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:41 pm

Lance wrote:I personally think that Wei Yan was relatively loyal. He never gave Kong-Ming problems on any of the campaigns, and his only screw-up was getting too far ahead during the initial campaign on Yizhou, which can be attributed to being new and not yet used to taking orders(Wei Yan seems to be one better suited to giving orders, not taking them, so I assume he had to adjust). After ZGL's death, he ignores Yang Yi and presses for a continuation of the campaign. There is no telling as to what would result had Wei Yan got his way, but Yang Yi, who had long been his rival, seized the chance to brand him a rebel and traitor, and had him killed.
number 1 yang yi made rumors of wei yan submiting to the north number 2 WEi Yan know how to take chang an because xiahou yuan sister or daughter was marryed to zhang fei they have a child got marry to liu shan wei yan use this plot and told zhugeliang about it to capture chang an but kongming did not listen.xiahou mao was gov of chang an.
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