Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang

Unread postby grand master of san guo » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:24 am

its kind funny because zhou yu is jealous of zhuge liang everytime and he died of zhuge liang. zhuge liang once said his not jealous his just think zhuge liang's talent can not use by wu. i just think is that true?
User avatar
grand master of san guo
Student
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:20 am
Location: Wu Zhang plain

Unread postby Yorak » Sat Apr 19, 2003 1:45 am

Depends...are we talking about the novel or history?

Historically, as far as I know, there was no record of any conflict between the two, and Zhou Yu was known to be a gentlemanly and broad-minded individual, so he probably didn't hold any personal grudge against Zhuge Liang. Like you said, if he did have concerns about Kongming, they were probably more due to his working for Liu Bei instead of Sun Quan.

In the novel, on the other hand, Zhou Yu did indeed seem jealous, and we can see more evidence of his jealous nature in his treatment of Pang Tong. But Zhuge Liang was indeed an unmatched genious in the novel, and a potential deadly threat to Wu; I'd have tried to kill him, too, were I in Zhou Yu's position. So I'm going to go with one part jealousy, one part state loyalty when it comes to the novel.
I'm not even here
Yorak
Master
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:21 am

Unread postby Supreme Kai » Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:57 am

Yorak wrote:In the novel, on the other hand, Zhou Yu did indeed seem jealous, and we can see more evidence of his jealous nature in his treatment of Pang Tong.


I'm not sure where you got the information about Zhou Yu's treatment of Pang Tong. In the novel Zhou Yu is the one that suggested using Pang Tong to chain the ships together.

In the novel Zhou Yu does appear to be jealous of Zhuge Liang, but I think that he really did consider Zhuge Liang a threat to Wu. Zhou Yu, knew Zhuge Liang's genius and knew that if he got to powerful he would be unstoppable. I credit Zhou Yu with insight that Lu Su did not have.
Supreme Kai
Apprentice
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:24 pm

Unread postby Jon » Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 pm

the jealousy was probably real, but i think the author over-emphasized it, to make zhuge look superior and zhou yu look inferior, when they well may have been on equal grounds. some of you might say zhou yu was no match for him, and that may not be true, but you've got to give zhou yu a chance here. zhuge liang and sima yi werent the only brilliant minds of their time, you know.
Jon
Ladies' Man
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:06 am

Unread postby Yorak » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:11 am

Again, I doubt that the jealousy was real. Zhou Yu, historically, was a broad-minded, generous person. He doesn't come across as the jealous type.

The part about it being done to glorify Zhuge Liang is dead on, though. The author really went out of his way to make Zhuge Liang better than everyone else, at the historical expense of a lot of other people...and Zhou Yu's the one who suffered the most.
I'm not even here
Yorak
Master
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:21 am

Unread postby SoSZ Patch 0506C » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:23 am

We may never know Zhou Yus true personality. History is always shown with bias, no matter how hard we try to avoid it. If someone from Wu says Zhou Yu was open-minded and generous, i would really doubt that. He may have been open-minded and generous in the eyes of one person, say a scholar from Wu, but appear to be evil and jealous to someone who was an outsider from Wu. Its all about perspective. Take Hilter for an example. Pre-world war 2 he was the hero of Germany, an idol to the masses of people in Germany. After world war 2 he was seem as a tryanical evil that brought Germany down. In six short years the views of people radically change. Now i'm not Hilter was a good person, but its just an example of bias and misleadings in history. Now 3k history greatly applies to this, as accounts of that time are sketchy and we have nothing much to go by expect a couple of sources whose validity is today doubted.
SoSZ Patch 0506C
Apprentice
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 5:52 am

Unread postby Zanbatou » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:03 am

I'm not sure I agree with the hitler example, but you have a good point. We will never trulyknow Zhou Yu's personality. Had he written some strategy books before his death we'd have something else to go by (like Kongming's Mastering the Art of War). Personlly, I believe there was a dash of jealousy as per human nature. However, I think he mostly saw him as extremely dangerous, and thus needed to be taken care of.
--------------------------------------------------------
All right you primitive pinheads, listen up! You see this? This is my boomstick!
Zanbatou
Academic
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:06 am
Location: Learning how to spell 'Zanbatou'

Unread postby Jon » Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:26 pm

Zambato wrote:However, I think he mostly saw him as extremely dangerous, and thus needed to be taken care of.
exactly. i really believe he was open minded and generous, but most people get jealous of people who appear to be superior to them. i hate to say it, but i cant trust anything about anybody from shu anymore.i mean, read the book. zhuge liang's magic and zhou yu being so low on the strategist scale in my eyes take up the 3 parts fiction.[/u]

then again, i could be wrong. the author likes to make things up.he might never have been jealous at all. heres somethin to debate over-did zhou yu really try to align zhuge into wu?
Jon
Ladies' Man
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:06 am

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:10 pm

zhou_yu_musou03 wrote:i hate to say it, but i cant trust anything about anybody from shu anymore.i mean, read the book. zhuge liang's magic and zhou yu being so low on the strategist scale in my eyes take up the 3 parts fiction.


The novel is just that, a novel. It is not surprising that it has a lot of fiction. And at the time it was written, Shu was looked at as the "good guys," so the book is very pro-Shu. You know, you can read about the historical bios of people from the era.(These are not the novel bios, which are Shu biased. They are SGZ bios.) Check http://www.kongming.net/novel/bios/type.php#sgz http://www.users.bigpond.com/acesc/ http://www.3kingdoms.net/forum/showthre ... genumber=1 and the Kongming's Archive section of this board. These historical bios of course could be biased. But they are the most accurate historical documents we have. So therefore they should be seen as realiable.
Last edited by TheGreatNads on Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby Jon » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:14 pm

thanks, if they are going to be biased, i think there should be a biased edition for wei and wu too. glorify the tiger!
Jon
Ladies' Man
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:06 am

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], Lord_Cao_Cao and 7 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron