Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, and Lu Bu

[TheGreatNads]

Weeeeelll...If it isn't the Great Nads ripping another Shu warrior. Tone down the Shu hatred, it makes for a less intelligent conversation.

Zhao Yun did nothing spectacular. Ma Chao got over 200 hundred people in his family murdered because of his own foolishness.

[Pang Shiyuan]

Zhao Yun did nothing spectacular. Ma Chao got over 200 hundred people in his family murdered because of his own foolishness.

Ma Chao got most of his clan executed because of his daring in attempting to capture Cao Cao single handedly. But he failed because of Xu Zhu's presence. No other general can boast of such an act of courage and his actions can be justified because Cao Cao was monopolising the power of the Han court at the time...

In essence, Ma Chao was attempting to emulate General Cai of Lu when he threatened Qi Huan Gong with a dagger to hand over the captured territories of Lu.

Zhao Yun clearly was not a brilliant or powerful general like Guan Yu or Zhang Fei, but Chen Shou's appraisal of him along with Huang Hansheng is full of praise, especially to their firmness and courage. Zhao and Huang IMHO are the ideal subordinates, ever loyal, of a moderate character and with little or no character defects.

[TheGreatNads]

Ma Chao got most of his clan executed because of his daring in attempting to capture Cao Cao single handedly. But he failed because of Xu Zhu's presence. No other general can boast of such an act of courage and his actions can be justified because Cao Cao was monopolising the power of the Han court at the time...

I don't see how Cao Cao monoplising the power of the Han court matters, considering the barbarian's father was a traitor to the Han.

Zhao Yun clearly was not a brilliant or powerful general like Guan Yu or Zhang Fei, but Chen Shou's appraisal of him along with Huang Hansheng is full of praise, especially to their firmness and courage. Zhao and Huang IMHO are the ideal subordinates, ever loyal, of a moderate character and with little or no character defects.

Maybe they were loyal and brave. But that doesn't make them good generals.

[Pang Shiyuan]

I don't see how Cao Cao monoplising the power of the Han court matters, considering the barbarian's father was a traitor to the Han.

How was that so? Ma Teng was ever loyal to Han, particularly since the Lius had always heaped rewards and titles on the famous Ma family (mostly due to the work of Ma Yuan, a "legendary" general of Han). Such titles like the General who Subdues the West or Commandant of the Guards were given to Ma Teng during the turmoil in China.

The reason why Teng attacked Chang An was probably because of his dissatisfaction with Cao Cao's wanton distribution of court titles and subjugation of the Emperor.

Maybe they were loyal and brave. But that doesn't make them good generals.

What defines a "good general"? One who contributes towards a kingdom more than he takes back? Guan Yu was instrumental for Liu Bei's survival and subsequent rise to power. But all that was dashed to pieces when he lost Jing Zhou to Lü Meng. Zhao Yun saved the lives of Lady Gan and Liu Shan at Chang Ban, (however he didn't kill "50-odd" generals of Cao as stated in SGYY ) and played several roles in the capture of Yi Zhou. To what extent his contributions were can only be speculated.

Chen Shou didn't write much about Zhao Yun other than his colourful promotions. Pei Songzhi later added to Zhao's bio and I suspect that was what impressed LGZ to make Zhao the supreme warrior he was in SGYY.

Ma Chao on the other hand was a proven leader of men. After being driven away by Cao Cao, he quickly regrouped and led his Rong allies to conquer Yi Cheng.

[grand master of san guo]

zhao yun its acutlly 10 time better than ma chao but mao chao can at elast lead an army!

[Jon]

to tell the truth i dont like any of them.

[Zanbatou]

Zhao Yun 10 times better than Ma Chao?!! Preposterous!! He was an excellent bodygaurd and a brave (though not amazing) fighter. Ma Chao on the other hand lead his troops with great skill. He could will them to fight in almost any situation. In addition, he was a proven fighter (I believe he cut down some generals on his father's campagns). You cannot put him on the same level as Zhao Yun.

Wow, the Great Nads is the biggest Weist I've ever seen. Cao Cao did betray the Han by practically replicating Dong Zhuo's actions (although he didn't kill as many officials). He manipulated the court and the Emperor like puppets. Ma Teng was proboblyattacking for this reason in addition to Pang Shiyuan's reason.

[TheGreatNads]

How was that so? Ma Teng was ever loyal to Han, particularly since the Lius had always heaped rewards and titles on the famous Ma family (mostly due to the work of Ma Yuan, a "legendary" general of Han). Such titles like the General who Subdues the West or Commandant of the Guards were given to Ma Teng during the turmoil in China.

Both Ma Teng and Han Sui lead a rebellion with the Qiang against the Han.

What defines a "good general"? One who contributes towards a kingdom more than he takes back? Guan Yu was instrumental for Liu Bei's survival and subsequent rise to power. But all that was dashed to pieces when he lost Jing Zhou to Lü Meng. Zhao Yun saved the lives of Lady Gan and Liu Shan at Chang Ban, (however he didn't kill "50-odd" generals of Cao as stated in SGYY ) and played several roles in the capture of Yi Zhou. To what extent his contributions were can only be speculated.

A good general is to me someone who has impressive military skill. Zhao Yun is not at all impressive.

Ma Chao on the other hand was a proven leader of men. After being driven away by Cao Cao, he quickly regrouped and led his Rong allies to conquer Yi Cheng.

Yes, I have heard this arguement on Ma Chao's "greatness." I've also heard the arguement that Ma Chao held Tong Pass really well, and that's why Cao Cao attacked from south of the river to prevent him from defending the north. But Ma Chao was still defeated and didn't accomplish jack. I don't think he was that great of a troop leader.

[Zanbatou]

Ma Chao had the odds against him when he attacked Cao Cao, and it is amazing he lasted as long as he did. He, Pang De, and Ma Dai were the only decent generals around (Han Sui knew nada about warfare), he was vastly outnumbered, and Cao Cao's strategy beat almost everyone. Victory was imposible, I don't care who you put in his possition.

The Ma's rebbeled against Cao Cao, who was manipulating the Han.

Once again, anyone who charges into Cao Cao's massive army alone and lives to tell about must be either invisible, or a skilled warrior. I think Cao had 1 million at Chang Ban, and he survived them.

P.S. What time zone is this forum in? It's not even 11:30 here.

[TheGreatNads]

Ma Chao had the odds against him when he attacked Cao Cao, and it is amazing he lasted as long as he did. He, Pang De, and Ma Dai were the only decent generals around (Han Sui knew nada about warfare),

Ma Dai was a nobody. But you're right about Pang De.

he was vastly outnumbered, and Cao Cao's strategy beat almost everyone. Victory was imposible, I don't care who you put in his possition.

It definately wasn't impossible. In fact a lot of cities rebelled with Ma Chao. He did not have the huge disadvantage you make him out to have. Cao Cao had been battling nonstop, Ma Chao hadn't been. It definately wasn't impossible for Ma Chao to beat Cao Cao.

The Ma's rebbeled against Cao Cao, who was manipulating the Han.

No they didn't. The Han emperor ordered Cao Cao to supress them.

Once again, anyone who charges into Cao Cao's massive army alone and lives to tell about must be either invisible, or a skilled warrior. I think Cao had 1 million at Chang Ban, and he survived them.

He didn't charge into Cao Cao's forces at all. Read his biography, there is no mention of him fighting anyone.

P.S. What time zone is this forum in? It's not even 11:30 here.