To find the answer "Zhuge Liang was overrated?" we must look to the historical man and by doing so, we can see that he was a very intelligent man, able and harding work but also, a terrible commander, a egocentric and narcissist character who take the course of history in his own hands (literally, most of what we knew today about Shu comes from his hands!). Had he not being "cautious", he would have shared the fate of Zhuge Ke.
On sharing fate of Zhuge Ke, unlikely given the very very different nature, culture and rulers of the two kingdoms.
Are you getting your stuff from the controversial archlich becuase some of that seems very much like him?
Zhuge Liang did not create Shu history. Where we get Shu's biographies (not including annotations) are....Chen Shou. Who was around one when Zhuge Liang died, the only record of his relations with the Zhuge family say hostile (but that source is considered questionable), whose work was a private project. If Zhuge Liang wanted history written by him, he would have created a history department (and it is a great regret that, perhaps due to the farce when Liu Bei tried to get a history project going, Shu never did), not left it to the chance a baby would later become a leading historian and be pro-Zhuge.
His inventions? that is a lot of debate here
His organization? the phrase "retreat due to lack of supplies comes to mind?"
Master of retreat? LOL
Ability to use officers and understanding of his men? He never had such "ability", the use of his men only limited to his own faction, he was a narcisist bastard who ignored talents in his own ranks because of his ego.
Had he been Wei or Wu? Had been in Wu, his brother would have helped him A LOT to rise in the ranks, in Wei, he would have been a good prefect to a very far away count (he would have been distrusted because that is a Zhuge in Wu, the same kind of distrust that Zhuge Dan lived)
1) There is to an extent but none the less, we have some inventions recorded from that time and he does seem on a par with Ma Jun in that era
2) I said organization, not ability to terraform the landscape so Hanzhong wasn't a problem
3) Yep. Got his armies out intact, killed two Wei generals. It isn't a skill you want to use but is a useful skill to have. Imagine if Zhuge Ke had it
4) Yes he did. A problem Shu had was the miliatry didn't develop talent after he died whereas Liang left a strong officer core and he managed to keep Wei Yan useful despite Wei Yan's... problematic attitude. His use of generals allowed him to win towns and small scale battles.
Is there some he could have used better? Sure. Liang, like most people in his position, wasn't immune to bias and one wonders if likes of Peng Yang could have been used better. His first NC use of his officers was poor.
5) I didn't make my point clear I fear. I meant for Wei and Wu, his level of results would have been useful, for Shu it wasn't enough becuase they needed a major breakthrough.
In terms of how he would have done elsewhere, he probably would have got to very high levels of civil office in both kingdoms and had some miliatry career. Zhuge Dan had a long career in Wei despite his controversial choice of friends holding him back, would hold high rank and be given key defence points against Wu and he was not the first or last figure with ties to other kingdoms.
He know his limits, merit to him, but that don't make him a good commander, if we used this as a factor, one may say that Sun Quan was a good commander too and that is very far from reality.
No but I have listed other reasons why Liang was a good commander. Sun Quan was a good defensive commander but a terrible (as in actually terrible) offensive commander, problem for Wu is he never accepted the latter
Yes it is!
How does that the novel placed Liang in places he wasn't have any reflection on the historical Liang?
Yong Kai rebellion lasted YEARS (even before Liu Bei died), so, Zhuge have a lot of info about: "how the enemy fight?" (Zhang Yi had failed to supress the said rebellion, Ma Zhong gained merit fighting them) , "knowledge about the terrain (possibles routes of advance and retreat)". The part "Zhuge Liang never had the chance to face Yong Kai" came down here?
Yes, I'm aware Yong Kai's quite successful revolt was going on years. So yes Shu should have such information. That doesn't really answer my point? Zhuge Liang had never fought them before, was in Cheng Du (mostly) till then (his job then settling things after Liu Bei died) and was already gathering the army before Yong Kai was killed.
lorindir wrote:But even a cautious man should have listen more to his officers, he reppeated the same mistake more than once, he took the same road (even knowing that the enemy reinforced it!) and he followed the same mistaken tactic!
The only plan I call him rejecting is Wei Yan's questionable, never altering plan. I don't recall him taking the same road
lorindir wrote:1- Yang Yi was a member of Zhuge Liang faction, so.....
as was Wei Yan given how often Zhuge Liang sacked those Wei Yan disliked
