Dong Zhou wrote:Indeed, his Meng Da camapign was bold and decisive as were his camapigns against Wu Zhang. It is hard to know quite what went wrong, that he kept losing the skirmishes, when he became CiC, given lack of detail.
lorindir wrote:The historical Zhuge Liang was very clever, that is no doubt that, the Shu Kingdom would have never existed without his hands, but as a comander, Zhuge Liang was terrible.
Sun Fin wrote:Terrible? I think that is unfair. He clearly isn't the military genius that the novel presents him as. However he did make some small gains and fought several times without suffering a severe loss against a far larger kingdom with far more resources. A 'terrible' commander would have been crushed leaving his kingdom exposed and Shu would have been destroyed far earlier.
lorindir wrote:I do think that Zhuge Liang was overrated (if we believe everything we heard about him, we would think he is god!)
The historical Zhuge Liang was very clever, that is no doubt that, the Shu Kingdom would have never existed without his hands, but as a comander, Zhuge Liang was terrible.
The only victory that the historical Zhuge Liang had was against the rebellion in the south (and he only won because Gao Ding betrayed Yong Kai). Most of his "sucesses" or are taken from other people or aren't really sucesses:
At Chi Bi, Zhou Yu was the commander.
At the invasion of Yi province, Pang Tong was the strategist.
At the invasion of Han Zhong, Fa zheng was the strategist.
Dong Zhou wrote:Novel and culturally? Sure, the man is superhuman and meant to be almost Godlike in his wisdom. The historical Zhuge Liang can't be blamed for that
Dong Zhou wrote:As a commander? Nowhere near terrible bar the first NC. A terrible commander would be beaten heavily and often, Zhuge Liang took two towns, killed two Wei generals and kept Wei on the backfoot enough. His inventions, his organization, master of retreat, ability to use officers and understanding of his men made him a good commander, had he been Wei or Wu, that would be enough. He was a good commander, not great by any means, but far from terrible.
Dong Zhou wrote:What Shu needed was 1) an experienced commander in first NC.
Dong Zhou wrote:
2) He lacked boldness. Zhuge Liang was cautoius, this prevented disaster but it also meant Shu was never going to overturn the major odds against them.
Dong Zhou wrote:1) Given Zhuge Liang never had a chance to face Yong Kai, we can't say Liang would only have won becuase of his death. It certainly helped though
Dong Zhou wrote:2) and that has no reflection on the historical Zhuge Liang. I'm well aware of what the historical Zhuge Liang did and he had credible victories to his name, why should he be hit becuase of the novel Liang's success?
DragonAtma wrote:Keep in mind that although all of Zhuge Liang's northern campaigns were losses, none of them were major losses. Yes, they went through a lot of grain, but IIRC manpower losses were limited to 5% or less -- certainly nothing near Cao Shuang's calamity at Xingshi, nor did they have a near-disaster the way Wu did at Xiaoyao Ford.
DragonAtma wrote:As for losing officers, keep in mind that (1) Wei Yan mainly was alienated not by Zhuge Liang but by the dispute with Yang Yi, and (2) none of his loss of officers compares to when Sima Yi's bad order caused Zhang He's death.
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