Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:36 am

This is a spin-off from the discussion in the thread touching on the officers/talents which Liu Biao had. I feel that my discussion with MNB has somewhat digressed from the main topic so I'm obliged to post a new thread here. If I understand it correctly, MNB tried to present an equal relationship relating the scenario whereby Liu Biao nearly had Han Song executed to the scenario whereby Sun Quan never promoted Zhang Zhao to be his Prime Minister because he wanted to exact revenge on the latter. My stand would be that such a way of relating the two issues is not really acceptable considering that we need to understand the position of Sun Quan much more clearly before claiming that his actions towards Zhang Zhao mirrored that of Liu Biao's actions towards Han Song.

Let's continue. :D

Mengdez New Book wrote:
First of all, IMO the suggestion from Zhang Zhao to surrender to Cao Cao not a bad idea at all. First, Cao Cao owned Xian Di, if you warring Cao Cao, that's mean you disobey the Han Emperor. Second, Cao Cao really treat those who are surrender nicely like Liu Zong and Zhang Lu. Third, what the citizens or people want anyway? A peaceful ground for them to live, if Sun Quan surrender to Cao Cao, it was a great chance for Cao Cao to unite the whole China, i believe what will come after that should be rebuild of the whole land, Cao Cao had experience and did it greatly at his own Northen lands, these suppose what the people at that time wanted all this way. Fourth, everyone was fear when Cao Cao sent the letter to Sun Quan, it was 'logical' for Cao Cao armies to defeat Sun Quan's armies even Sun Quan once had doubt about it. So, why needed to lose so much when you cannot win the war?

With this in mind, now, consider the event that Liu Biao nearly had Han Song executed when he merely suggested to send Liu Biao's son to the capital to consolidate the alliance. Which Lord is more petty?

Mengdez New Book wrote:I choose the second. Anyway, why you ask this question anyway? Is there any hidden agenda from you. :lol:

There is no hidden agenda because the agenda is obvious enough. :lol: If you chose the second, it would imply that Liu Biao's actions were much more unacceptable and it would be unfair to compare Liu Biao's way of handling Han Song to Sun Quan's way of dealing with Zhang Zhao on equal ground.

Mengdez New Book wrote:Did Liu Biao's father leave Han Song to guide Liu Biao? :lol: And remember Liu Biao was older than Han Song i think, so when Han Song did the same thing, he will end up with his life. Anyway, i don't think we can compare that, how about we view Zhang Zhao treated Sun Quan like his own child, it was quite reasonable for him to guide Sun Quan although Sun Quan was 40 years old. This was what parents do right, no matter how old are you, you still the baby child in their mind. :)

First off, we're talking about the government structure and its protocols and not simply emotional stuffs like relations, etc. No Emperor/Lord/Leader would feel comfortable working with a minister who always behaved as if he was the guardian/parent. I mean, even in the context of a family, do you like being called a child even when you're 40 years old? I for one would detest it. Hence, my point is, when picking on Sun Quan's treatment of Zhang Zhao, we need to look at both sides of the story before shifting all the blame on Sun Quan.
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Re: Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:10 am

Great Deer wrote:This is a spin-off from the discussion in the thread touching on the officers/talents which Liu Biao had. I feel that my discussion with MNB has somewhat digressed from the main topic so I'm obliged to post a new thread here. If I understand it correctly, MNB tried to present an equal relationship relating the scenario whereby Liu Biao nearly had Han Song executed to the scenario whereby Sun Quan never promoted Zhang Zhao to be his Prime Minister because he wanted to exact revenge on the latter. My stand would be that such a way of relating the two issues is not really acceptable considering that we need to understand the position of Sun Quan much more clearly before claiming that his actions towards Zhang Zhao mirrored that of Liu Biao's actions towards Han Song.

Let's continue. :D


Seem like this topic went far that i thought. :lol: Frankly, do i compare those two scenarios? i just merely told CK what i thought about Sun Quan. :roll:


Great Deer wrote:With this in mind, now, consider the event that Liu Biao nearly had Han Song executed when he merely suggested to send Liu Biao's son to the capital to consolidate the alliance. Which Lord is more petty?

There is no hidden agenda because the agenda is obvious enough. :lol: If you chose the second, it would imply that Liu Biao's actions were much more unacceptable and it would be unfair to compare Liu Biao's way of handling Han Song to Sun Quan's way of dealing with Zhang Zhao on equal ground.


I believe you forget the important cause for Han Song's incident, did Zhang Zhao was sent to Cao Cao' place and then back to tell the story? Did Cao Cao promoted Zhang Zhao with any rank? If Zhang Zhao did what Han Song was doing, i don't think Sun Quan will forgive him.


Great Deer wrote:First off, we're talking about the government structure and its protocols and not simply emotional stuffs like relations, etc. No Emperor/Lord/Leader would feel comfortable working with a minister who always behaved as if he was the guardian/parent. I mean, even in the context of a family, do you like being called a child even when you're 40 years old? I for one would detest it. Hence, my point is, when picking on Sun Quan's treatment of Zhang Zhao, we need to look at both sides of the story before shifting all the blame on Sun Quan.


If what Zhang Zhao did was not wrong at all (He was obviously not wrong in the history), i do believe Sun Quan should consider he be the Prime Minister. Don't you think it is a bit obvious that Sun Quan not elected him merely because his decision over surrender issue? Anyway, i admit that being a guardian was one of the factor discredit Zhang Zhao to be the PM but i don't think that is the only reason.
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Re: Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:26 am

Mengdez New Book wrote:Seem like this topic went far that i thought. :lol: Frankly, do i compare those two scenarios? i just merely told CK what i thought about Sun Quan. :roll:

In a way, you did. Note that I'm not picking on you but rather I'm addressing the example you made after CK talked about Liu Biao's mistreatment of Han Song. :D

Mengdez New Book wrote:I believe you forget the important cause for Han Song's incident, did Zhang Zhao was sent to Cao Cao' place and then back to tell the story? Did Cao Cao promoted Zhang Zhao with any rank? If Zhang Zhao did what Han Song was doing, i don't think Sun Quan will forgive him.

It's an equally bad situation if not worse for Zhang Zhao's case. First off, for Liu Biao's scenario, Liu Biao was not facing a real crisis when Han Song came back and told him all those stuffs. Cao Cao was still busy with the north and at most, there were only a few border skirmishes with no real invasion. Also, Han Song's status in Liu Biao's administration could not be compared to Zhang Zhao. Hence, his words were likely to have a less impact on the morale of the other officers and men.

On the other hand, Zhang Zhao was one of the key officials in Wu and he made that remark in the middle of the crisis (note that during then, Cao Cao's forces were all over Jing Zhou and it was obvious that Cao Cao wanted to conquer the Riverland or he wouldn't need to build a naval camp near the city of Ye and train a naval taskforce before advancing south). If you consider what Sun Ce said to Zhang Zhao before he died (吴历曰:策谓昭曰:“若仲谋不任事者,君便自取之。正复不克捷,缓步西归,亦无所虑"), Sun Ce actually asked Zhang Zhao to take over his enterprise if Sun Quan was found to be incapable. Less than 20 years later, Zhang Zhao adviced Sun Quan to surrender to Cao Cao. Surely this is a major disappointment to Sun Quan or even any of the Sun family members.

Mengdez New Book wrote:If what Zhang Zhao did was not wrong at all (He was obviously not wrong in the history), i do believe Sun Quan should consider he be the Prime Minister. Don't you think it is a bit obvious that Sun Quan not elected him merely because his decision over surrender issue?

You didn't get my point. It was obviously not only because of the surrender issue but also probably because of personality clashes. Also, whether Zhang Zhao was wrong or not depend on which side you're standing on, and hence, it is wrong to state that Zhang Zhao was obviously not wrong in history.

Mengdez New Book wrote:Anyway, i admit that being a guardian was one of the factor discredit Zhang Zhao to be the PM but i don't think that is the only reason.

Let me rephrase it a little. Zhang Zhao acting like a guardian to Sun Quan once too often might have made Sun Quan felt uncomfortable promoting and working with him. This would also be an easy fuse to trigger of a personality clash as shown in several situations noted in Zhang Zhao's SGZ biography. As such, I would regard this as one of the main reasons why Sun Quan did not want Zhang Zhao to be the Prime Minister. Note that I'm not saying that Sun Quan was completely right in doing so. :D
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Re: Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:27 am

Great Deer wrote:In a way, you did. Note that I'm not picking on you but rather I'm addressing the example you made after CK talked about Liu Biao's mistreatment of Han Song. :D

Well, if that the case, let it be. :P

Great Deer wrote:It's an equally bad situation if not worse for Zhang Zhao's case. First off, for Liu Biao's scenario, Liu Biao was not facing a real crisis when Han Song came back and told him all those stuffs. Cao Cao was still busy with the north and at most, there were only a few border skirmishes with no real invasion. Also, Han Song's status in Liu Biao's administration could not be compared to Zhang Zhao. Hence, his words were likely to have a less impact on the morale of the other officers and men.

Still, Liu Biao stressed by those around him whether join Cao Cao or Yuan Shao. If it was not well taken care, maybe will hurt his power over Jing Zhou. For the status, i don't think Liu Biao will sent the one who are uncapable to see Cao Cao, so Han Song should have credibility in his enterprise (?) :)



Great Deer wrote:On the other hand, Zhang Zhao was one of the key officials in Wu and he made that remark in the middle of the crisis (note that during then, Cao Cao's forces were all over Jing Zhou and it was obvious that Cao Cao wanted to conquer the Riverland or he wouldn't need to build a naval camp near the city of Ye and train a naval taskforce before advancing south). If you consider what Sun Ce said to Zhang Zhao before he died (吴历曰:策谓昭曰:“若仲谋不任事者,君便自取之。正复不克捷,缓步西归,亦无所虑"), Sun Ce actually asked Zhang Zhao to take over his enterprise if Sun Quan was found to be incapable. Less than 20 years later, Zhang Zhao adviced Sun Quan to surrender to Cao Cao. Surely this is a major disappointment to Sun Quan or even any of the Sun family members.

First, i don't think Sun Quan had made any decision over the issue whether war or not war Cao Cao. When he gathered all his officers, what he wanted to hear merely the suggestion and view from all officers. Do you think we can blamed Zhang Zhao to make such a suggestion in the history while Sun Quan was uncertain himself? There was just a meeting and everyone can tell their thought, if Sun Quan had decided in the first place, this situation will not occured. At that time, Sun Quan's will was war but he never mentioned it, who knew what he thought? So, Zhang Zhao just voice out he thought what the best for Sun Quan and his family. And, if Sun Quan did lost in Chibi war, do you think he will still alive under Cao Cao's hand? I don't think we can simply said Zhang Zhao lower the moral of the troops when the Lord himself don't know what to do. For the phrase that Sun Ce said, do Zhang Zhao really want Sun Ce or Sun family put so much expectation on him? And who really can interperate (?) the real meaning behind this word? It is like Liu Bei telling Zhuge Liang to take over the throne if Liu Shan really uncapable, do you think Liu Bei really meant it? :roll:

Great Deer wrote:You didn't get my point. It was obviously not only because of the surrender issue but also probably because of personality clashes. Also, whether Zhang Zhao was wrong or not depend on which side you're standing on, and hence, it is wrong to state that Zhang Zhao was obviously not wrong in history.

So, because Sun Quan won the war of Chibi, Zhang Zhao should be blamed for doing a wrong thing due to his suggestion surrendered to Cao Cao? You cannot punish people because they have different views with you isn't? If we look at the Chibi situation, it was a narrow chance for Sun Quan's troops to win the war, i don't think Zhang Zhao was wrong making the suggestion surrendered to Cao Cao. For the personality crash, remind me about Wei Zhen and Li Shimin :) Anyway, i see your point now, here is another reason should be put in consideration why Sun Quan ignore Zhang Zhao when come to PM's promotion. :)
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Re: Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao VS Liu Biao and his officers

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:58 am

Mengdez New Book wrote:Still, Liu Biao stressed by those around him whether join Cao Cao or Yuan Shao. If it was not well taken care, maybe will hurt his power over Jing Zhou. For the status, i don't think Liu Biao will sent the one who are uncapable to see Cao Cao, so Han Song should have credibility in his enterprise (?) :)

Yes, but Han Song's status in Jing Zhou was nothing compared to Zhang Zhao's in Wu. Not even Cai Mao could be compared to Zhang Zhao.

Mengdez New Book wrote:First, i don't think Sun Quan had made any decision over the issue whether war or not war Cao Cao. When he gathered all his officers, what he wanted to hear merely the suggestion and view from all officers. Do you think we can blamed Zhang Zhao to make such a suggestion in the history while Sun Quan was uncertain himself? There was just a meeting and everyone can tell their thought, if Sun Quan had decided in the first place, this situation will not occured. At that time, Sun Quan's will was war but he never mentioned it, who knew what he thought? So, Zhang Zhao just voice out he thought what the best for Sun Quan and his family. And, if Sun Quan did lost in Chibi war, do you think he will still alive under Cao Cao's hand? I don't think we can simply said Zhang Zhao lower the moral of the troops when the Lord himself don't know what to do. For the phrase that Sun Ce said, do Zhang Zhao really want Sun Ce or Sun family put so much expectation on him? And who really can interperate (?) the real meaning behind this word? It is like Liu Bei telling Zhuge Liang to take over the throne if Liu Shan really uncapable, do you think Liu Bei really meant it? :roll:

Now, look at it from this angle. Zhang Zhao was highly trusted by the Sun family since the early days, whether he liked it or not. As such, in the time of a crisis, when Sun Quan asked for opinions, Zhang Zhao proposed surrendering and giving up the Sun family's enterprise. When you looked at it from Sun Quan's point of view, wouldn't you feel disappointed? Is it really good for the Sun family that they surrendered? Perhaps so for Zhang Zhao, cos he would earn himself a high rank, but for Sun Quan, do you really think that he would care for a post of a powerless duke under the control of Cao Cao in the capital?

Finally, it's not up to us to speculate whether Liu Bei or Sun Ce meant what they said or not at their respective deathbeds even though I know of an English phrase that says something like dying men don't lie. :lol:

Mengdez New Book wrote:So, because Sun Quan won the war of Chibi, Zhang Zhao should be blamed for doing a wrong thing due to his suggestion surrendered to Cao Cao?

You have failed to read my point earlier when I stated that "whether Zhang Zhao was wrong or not depend on which side you're standing on, and hence, it is wrong to state that Zhang Zhao was obviously not wrong in history. "

Mengdez New Book wrote:You cannot punish people because they have different views with you isn't? If we look at the Chibi situation, it was a narrow chance for Sun Quan's troops to win the war, i don't think Zhang Zhao was wrong making the suggestion surrendered to Cao Cao.

Was Zhang Zhao being officially punished? No, not at all. All Sun Quan did was to spite him during a banquet (but I think it's rather humilating too). Considering that Sun Quan was disappointed with Zhang Zhao when he urged Sun Quan to surrender, and considering that Zhang Zhao always acted like a guardian for Sun Quan, don't you think we should give Sun Quan a bit more understanding for this matter? :D
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:27 pm

Great Deer wrote:Now, look at it from this angle. Zhang Zhao was highly trusted by the Sun family since the early days, whether he liked it or not. As such, in the time of a crisis, when Sun Quan asked for opinions, Zhang Zhao proposed surrendering and giving up the Sun family's enterprise. When you looked at it from Sun Quan's point of view, wouldn't you feel disappointed? Is it really good for the Sun family that they surrendered? Perhaps so for Zhang Zhao, cos he would earn himself a high rank, but for Sun Quan, do you really think that he would care for a post of a powerless duke under the control of Cao Cao in the capital?

How about we reverse the angle? Before Sun Ce die, he gave his authority to Zhang Zhao. Zhang Zhao should felt a great responsible to maintain Jiang Dong from the enemy around. Then, he needed to guide the new young Lord of Jiang Dong, Sun Quan and protect his Lord's family. In order not to fail his master Sun Ce's hope, he had to strenghten himself, strict to his new Lord so that all the things at Jiang Dong in order. The task given to him was too important and he needed to make sure everything right. Then, one day he heard Cao Cao was about to attack Jiang Dong. In his mind, he needed to protect his Lord and the Lord's family, for him, the better way was to surrender to Cao Cao because Cao Cao just captured Jing Zhou which made him even stronger, it was a risk for the Lord to war Cao Cao with Jiang Dong current status. With this, he proposed to his Lord surrendered to Cao Cao. I don't find anything wrong in this matter and i strongly disagree with your statement that what Zhang Zhao really want just a high rank. If Zhang Zhao desire the power or rank, he should had take the whole Jiang Dong when Sun Ce passed away, remember when Sun Ce die, Zhou Yu was not around, he could easily took down the whole Jiang Dong with him but what he did indeed was stopped Sun Quan from the sadness and depression, calm the Jiang Dong's situation and informed Xian Di that Jiang Dong had new Lord. What he had done here were generous enough and when he proposed to Sun Quan surrendered to Cao Cao, i don't think this suggestion was for himself but was for Sun Quan and his family or the Jiang Dong's citizen as well. 8-)

Great Deer wrote:Finally, it's not up to us to speculate whether Liu Bei or Sun Ce meant what they said or not at their respective deathbeds even though I know of an English phrase that says something like dying men don't lie.

Remember, what the history book had written just a text that based on what happpened. It is not perfect so it is the job of us to give 'life' to this text with our own view and own thought. And, i do think that's the purpose for James and other open this forum. :D

Great Deer wrote:You have failed to read my point earlier when I stated that "whether Zhang Zhao was wrong or not depend on which side you're standing on, and hence, it is wrong to state that Zhang Zhao was obviously not wrong in history. "

Yes, i do think Zhang Zhao was not wrong during Chibi war. What i want to say is we cannot punish Zhang Zhao because Sun Quan had won the Chibi war and before that Zhang Zhao suggested to surrender to Cao Cao. When Cao Cao came, who knew he will lost anyway? Zhang Zhao is not god or fortune teller, all he was thinking about based on the situation Jiang Dong was facing. His view was to surrender, that's all.

Great Deer wrote:Was Zhang Zhao being officially punished? No, not at all. All Sun Quan did was to spite him during a banquet (but I think it's rather humilating too). Considering that Sun Quan was disappointed with Zhang Zhao when he urged Sun Quan to surrender, and considering that Zhang Zhao always acted like a guardian for Sun Quan, don't you think we should give Sun Quan a bit more understanding for this matter?

Don't you think spite him during a banquet was the deepest punish if you compare with the official punishment as you said. Remember what happened to Yu Jin? Cao Pi didn't punish him either but just let him to looked at the drawing which showed how he surrendered to Guan Yu, what happened to Yu Jin? He was so humiliate until depressed then passed away. What Sun Quan done here was almost the same, he should knew Sun Ce left Zhang Zhao to guide him, all the officers must be respected Zhang Zhao very much. Don't you think Sun Quan humiliated Zhang Zhao in front other officer was another punishment as well? If Sun Quan was a normal person, we can be more understanding for what he act but he was the Lord of Jiang Dong, the Lord who guide the whole Jiang Dong, he shouldn't do such kind of thing. :wink:
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:49 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:How about we reverse the angle? Before Sun Ce die, he gave his authority to Zhang Zhao. Zhang Zhao should felt a great responsible to maintain Jiang Dong from the enemy around. Then, he needed to guide the new young Lord of Jiang Dong, Sun Quan and protect his Lord's family. In order not to fail his master Sun Ce's hope, he had to strenghten himself, strict to his new Lord so that all the things at Jiang Dong in order. The task given to him was too important and he needed to make sure everything right. Then, one day he heard Cao Cao was about to attack Jiang Dong. In his mind, he needed to protect his Lord and the Lord's family, for him, the better way was to surrender to Cao Cao because Cao Cao just captured Jing Zhou which made him even stronger, it was a risk for the Lord to war Cao Cao with Jiang Dong current status. With this, he proposed to his Lord surrendered to Cao Cao. I don't find anything wrong in this matter and i strongly disagree with your statement that what Zhang Zhao really want just a high rank.

Of cos you cannot find anything wrong with Zhang Zhao's deeds because you have made your argument based on Zhang Zhao's perspective. Even so, the scenario whereby Sun Ce told Zhang Zhao to take over his enterprise if Sun Quan was incapable clearly showed that Sun Ce gave top priority to his family's enterprise. Much like the case of Liu Bei and Liu Shan, I don't see any good reason why Liu Bei/Sun Ce should lie to Zhuge Liang/Zhang Zhao. Also, have you tried looking at this issue from Sun Quan's point of view?

Mengdez New Book wrote:Remember, what the history book had written just a text that based on what happpened. It is not perfect so it is the job of us to give 'life' to this text with our own view and own thought. And, i do think that's the purpose for James and other open this forum. :D

Yes, but what you did previously was to present a speculation without giving any explanation as to how you derive that. Why would Sun Ce want to lie to Zhang Zhao? Sun Ce had always been known to display a great sense of trust for his surbordinates (e.g. Taishi Ci, Zhou Yu ). What would the dying man gain by telling such a lie? The advantage of telling the truth is that Zhang Zhao (or for the case of Liu Bei, then it will be Zhuge Liang) would be even more obliged to serve the future Lord faithfully given that the dying Lord showed utmost trust in him. Anyway, I'd like to hear the reasons for your speculation as to Sun Ce/Liu Bei had lied at their respective deathbeds. :D

Mengdez New Book wrote:Yes, i do think Zhang Zhao was not wrong during Chibi war. What i want to say is we cannot punish Zhang Zhao because Sun Quan had won the Chibi war and before that Zhang Zhao suggested to surrender to Cao Cao. When Cao Cao came, who knew he will lost anyway? Zhang Zhao is not god or fortune teller, all he was thinking about based on the situation Jiang Dong was facing. His view was to surrender, that's all.

I'd like to reiterate that Sun Quan did not punish Zhang Zhao in any official manner and it was only years later that he spite Zhang Zhao during his coronation banquet (possibly because he was slightly drunk too cos Sun Quan was known to have a penchant for alcohol). In addition, Sun Quan might also want to spite Zhang Zhao since during all those years, Zhang Zhao was acting like his guardian and they had personality clashes. It would seem natural for me that Sun Quan made that remark when he ascended the throne. In fact, I don't see any fault with his remark. Isn't it true that if Sun Quan listened to Zhang Zhao earlier, he would not be where he was then? :D

Mengdez New Book wrote:Don't you think spite him during a banquet was the deepest punish if you compare with the official punishment as you said. Remember what happened to Yu Jin?

I don't think so given the reasons I put forward above.

Mengdez New Book wrote:Cao Pi didn't punish him either but just let him to looked at the drawing which showed how he surrendered to Guan Yu, what happened to Yu Jin? He was so humiliate until depressed then passed away.

IMO, Yu Jin deserved it! :lol: He was a coward who surrendered while Pang De did the ultimate sacrifice.

Mengdez New Book wrote:What Sun Quan done here was almost the same, he should knew Sun Ce left Zhang Zhao to guide him, all the officers must be respected Zhang Zhao very much. Don't you think Sun Quan humiliated Zhang Zhao in front other officer was another punishment as well?

Wait a minute. Have you consider that Sun Quan might feel threaten by Zhang Zhao's high profile (made worse by Zhang Zhao's attitude)?? :D
]
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:31 pm

Great Deer wrote:Of cos you cannot find anything wrong with Zhang Zhao's deeds because you have made your argument based on Zhang Zhao's perspective. Even so, the scenario whereby Sun Ce told Zhang Zhao to take over his enterprise if Sun Quan was incapable clearly showed that Sun Ce gave top priority to his family's enterprise. Much like the case of Liu Bei and Liu Shan, I don't see any good reason why Liu Bei/Sun Ce should lie to Zhuge Liang/Zhang Zhao. Also, have you tried looking at this issue from Sun Quan's point of view?

I don't see any logic that Sun Ce told Zhang Zhao to take over the lead as gave top priority to his family's enterprise. If Zhang Zhao had done so, there should be no 'Sun' enterprise in Sanguo, i don't think Zhang Zhao will still retain the 'Sun' titles if he really took over the enterprise. Most probably Zhang Zhao would executed all other Sun family's member to strenghten it's own position.

Well, i admit if we based on Sun Quan's point of view, Zhang Zhao made a foolish suggestion (What Sun Quan thought). Anyway, although Sun Quan was uncertain at that time, i believe he was more prefer having a war with Cao Cao. Deep in his heart, the percentage for him to war Cao Cao larger than surrender to Cao Cao. (先入為主的觀念 :D) Therefore, when Zhang Zhao suggestion flew into his ears, he was frustrated. IMO, in this scenario, what i see is how selfish Sun Quan could be, if like what you said, he was reluctant to gave up his family enterprise after his brother passed it to him. For this, he had to ignore the safety of the Jiang Dong's citizen, put his family in danger position. Whatsoever, i don't think we can blame him either, he just doing the thing he thought he should do. :roll:

Great Deer wrote:Yes, but what you did previously was to present a speculation without giving any explanation as to how you derive that. Why would Sun Ce want to lie to Zhang Zhao? Sun Ce had always been known to display a great sense of trust for his surbordinates (e.g. Taishi Ci, Zhou Yu ). What would the dying man gain by telling such a lie? The advantage of telling the truth is that Zhang Zhao (or for the case of Liu Bei, then it will be Zhuge Liang) would be even more obliged to serve the future Lord faithfully given that the dying Lord showed utmost trust in him. Anyway, I'd like to hear the reasons for your speculation as to Sun Ce/Liu Bei had lied at their respective deathbeds.

Look at this way, when Sun Ce/Liu Bei passed away, why they merely chose Zhang Zhao/Zhuge Liang while there were many officers around? (Express those words :)) So, Sun Ce/Liu Bei should know Zhang Zhao/Zhuge Liang's personality very well, when they were still around, Zhang Zhao/Zhuge Liang had shown the ability and talent to them but i think the most important here was loyalty. Zhang Zhao/Zhuge Liang were loyal (忠誠和敦厚) to both of their Lord, so they were be even more loyal if they had been trusted with full heart. That's the reason Sun Ce/Liu Bei expressed those words before they die, they knew both of them won't betray him and will served their throne even better because of the trust. :)

Great Deer wrote:I'd like to reiterate that Sun Quan did not punish Zhang Zhao in any official manner and it was only years later that he spite Zhang Zhao during his coronation banquet (possibly because he was slightly drunk too cos Sun Quan was known to have a penchant for alcohol). In addition, Sun Quan might also want to spite Zhang Zhao since during all those years, Zhang Zhao was acting like his guardian and they had personality clashes. It would seem natural for me that Sun Quan made that remark when he ascended the throne. In fact, I don't see any fault with his remark. Isn't it true that if Sun Quan listened to Zhang Zhao earlier, he would not be where he was then?

You are right about he won't be the Emperor if he had listen to Zhang Zhao. His spike only shown how arrogant he could be when he became the Emperor. Still, i don't think that Sun Quan did not punish Zhang Zhao officially shown that he didn't really want to punish Zhang Zhao at all. For me, the spike incident still a way for Sun Quan to express his hatred over Zhang Zhao, remember that is one Chinese word said 酒后吐真言, those who drunk are telling the truth.

Anyway, BR, i came upon another fact that before Sun Ce passing away, Zhang Zhao suggested that let Sun Ce another brother (Sun Quan's brother) Sun Yi to lead the enterprise, do you think this is another reason for Sun Quan not to promoted Zhang Zhao to be the PM?

Great Deer wrote:IMO, Yu Jin deserved it! :lol: He was a coward who surrendered while Pang De did the ultimate sacrifice.

Sometimes i wonder do every officers during Sanguo era needed to do an ultimate sacrifice to show that they are loyal? I believe there were many generals and officers surrendered to new Lord but didn't even been criticized once. Let's look at Huang Zhong, Ma Chao, Yan Yan, Wen Pin, Hao Pu, Huang Quan and many more. Don't you think it is a bit harsh to say that?

Great Deer wrote:Wait a minute. Have you consider that Sun Quan might feel threaten by Zhang Zhao's high profile (made worse by Zhang Zhao's attitude)??

That's mean the threaten can let Sun Quan do whatever he liked to do :?:

How i miss the :grin emoticons, do you BR?
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am


Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved