Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:27 am

capnnerefir wrote:
Jia Shengde wrote:When did Liu Zhang die? Kongming.net says in 219, but also: 'Historically, he became a vassal of Sun Quan after the death of Guan Yu.' According to wikipedia Guan Yu dies in 220 (using the ZZTJ as source). Wikipedia also claims that the date of Liu Zhang's death is unknown. What is correct?


Guan Yu was executed in the final month of Jian'an 24, which was in February of the western year 220. Most of Jian'an 24 took place in the western year 219, which is what leads to confusion. Most people just say 219 to avoid splitting hairs.

After Liu Zhang surrendered to Liu Bei in 214, he was sent to Gong'an, Liu Bei's Jing headquarters. When Shi Ren surrendered Gong'an to Lu Meng, Liu Zhang came into Sun Quan's control. When Sun Quan was appointing officials in Jing, he also appointed Liu Zhang as Governor of Yi as a challenge to Liu Bei's authority there, with his temporary headquarters in Zigui. Liu Zhang passed away shortly after this, although exactly when is unclear. It was almost certainly some time in 220 (during the final month of Jian'an 24 or during Huangchu 1).


Thanks a lot!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:31 pm

I was reading Carl Leban's book on Cao Cao yesterday and I noticed that that Cao's dad is one of the three excellencies at one point. Does anyone know what dates he held that rank between?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:28 pm

He was Grand Commandant (Tàiwèi 太尉) from the 11th month of 187 to the fourth month of 188. Despite paying a large bribe for the position (as was Emperor Ling's custom), he did not hold it for very long. His retirement in 188 seems to have been voluntary, and he subsequently went to Xu province to retire in peace with most of his household. He lived there until 193, when he was murdered en route to Yan province.

It's possible that Cao Song sensed the volatile nature of the Han court and wished to extract himself before things reached a tipping point. That might explain why he went to Xu (which remained mostly peaceful until 193) instead of his family home in Qiao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:11 am

Sun Fin wrote:I was reading Carl Leban's book on Cao Cao yesterday and I noticed that that Cao's dad is one of the three excellencies at one point. Does anyone know what dates he held that rank between?

Fin, would it be possible for you to post a summary of that book? It appears to be out of print, with only a handful of universities having access to it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:21 am

Thanks Cap! Leban mentioned (I don't have the book on me for more details at the moment) that the Cao clan were harmed by a disgrace of an Empress they had connections to. Might that be the reason he resigned?

waywardauthor wrote:Fin, would it be possible for you to post a summary of that book? It appears to be out of print, with only a handful of universities having access to it.


I'm happy to, but it won't be for a while as I've only ever read the first 3 chapters. :oops:

It was originally written as a dissertation though so you can buy it, either as a pdf or in book form from here.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:08 am

Sun Fin wrote:Thanks Cap! Leban mentioned (I don't have the book on me for more details at the moment) that the Cao clan were harmed by a disgrace of an Empress they had connections to. Might that be the reason he resigned?


That was some years prior. The incident involved Empress Song.

Empress Song was one of Emperor Ling's concubines but was made empress in 171. However, this was purely the result of politics, and Emperor Ling was never especially fond of her. The other concubines, eager to take her place, constantly slandered her. In 172, things became worse. The Prince of Bohai (who was married to Emperess Song's aunt) refused to bribe a particularly influential eunuch (Wang Fu), so the eunuch slandered Prince Kui and managed to have him and his entire household executed. Wang Fu and his confederates subsequently worried that if Empress Song came into any real power, she would seek revenge against them, so a eunuch faction joined the concubines in slandering Empress Song. In 178, Emperor Ling had enough and deposed her. Shew as accused of witchcraft and died (probably by suicide) in prison.

Empress Song had a brother named Song Qi, who was married to one of Cao Cao's cousins. Since Cao Cao had made an enemy of the powerful eunuch Jiang Shi previously, Jiang Shi used this tenuous connection to Empress Song as a pretext to have Cao Cao dismissed from his position as Magistrate of Dunqiu. Cao Song seems to have been unaffected. This didn't cause Cao Cao too many problems, though, as he was appointed as a court consultant in 180.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:25 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
waywardauthor wrote:Fin, would it be possible for you to post a summary of that book? It appears to be out of print, with only a handful of universities having access to it.


I'm happy to, but it won't be for a while as I've only ever read the first 3 chapters. :oops:

It was originally written as a dissertation though so you can buy it, either as a pdf or in book form from here.

I'll have to buy it some time then. :mrgreen:

In the mean time, take your time.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Prana » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:57 am

When Liu Bei run away from Cao in Xinye, the book says that people of Xinye can follow or still stay at the city. In the end the people following Liu for escaping to Jiangxia.

In my opinion, the people is a bait or human shield for Liu army so he can escape from Cao. So the people is a victim from Liu Bei cruelty. This strategy is almost same when Yuanshu abandon his city to join his brother Yuanshao.

Am I right ?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:44 am

Prana wrote:When Liu Bei run away from Cao in Xinye, the book says that people of Xinye can follow or still stay at the city. In the end the people following Liu for escaping to Jiangxia.

In my opinion, the people is a bait or human shield for Liu army so he can escape from Cao. So the people is a victim from Liu Bei cruelty. This strategy is almost same when Yuanshu abandon his city to join his brother Yuanshao.

Am I right ?


Problem with that is that it made it very easy for Cao's armies to catch up with Liu Bei. Maybe it was a crafty, calculated move on his part, but it seems out of character for him, since in previous defeats he just dropped everything and fled.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Prana » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:12 am

Or maybe (just my speculation), it's advice from Zhuge to bring people.

If Liu just ran away with his army, Cao2x with his massive army will be more easier to annihilated all small Liu's army. But the human shield of Liu's army make chaos this situation. And the soldier of Cao2 (maybe) become confuse because they must fight and killed innocent people.

So Liu with this little advantage, he's army can be more safety ran to Jiangxia.

Until now I still don't get it, why Liu take a big risk to bring the people to join with his army. He must be certainly know, that people who came join with him will be catch up and massacre by Cao's army. It will be more safety for the People if they just stay at the city.
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