Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:03 am

Wow. That is some fine research Zyzyfer and that book title mentioned in the source you posted is exactly the name of the treatise referred to. So Luh Ke is Lu Ji, Lu Kang's son. That is good to know, it also aligns well with Lu Ji's other works. A shame he died so young in a false plot (then again it's the War of the Seven Princes so I'm not too surprised).
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Okay, question time.

After He Jin's death, when Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu led He Jin's troops against the regular attendants and other eunuchs, how many troops did the Yuans have? Were there enough that they could have held off Dong Zhuo's (initially small) force?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:36 pm

Did people of this period celebrate birthdays? I know they must have kept track of them as 23rd was significant I believe?

@DragonAtma - apparently they stormed the palace with 200 men. I can't find anything that says how many men the Yuan's commanded but they were officers in the Northern Army at this point so they would have had those 5000 men. Also the Eunuch's had ordered He Jin to attack rebels (I thank Han Sui?) and as a delaying mechanism he sent Yuan Shao to raise troops (plunged's bio of He Jin talks about it) so presumably they had them to. No idea how many men that was though! I suspect they had enough men to deal with Dong but perhaps not the military experience to handle a frontier general.
Last edited by Sun Fin on Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:41 pm

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I was wondering what is true about the story of Cao Cao killing Lu Boshe.
Wikipedia cites three sources:
The Wei Shu (魏書) recorded:

Cao Cao felt that Dong Zhuo was doomed to failure so he refused to accept Dong's appointment and escaped back to his hometown. He was accompanied by a few horsemen and they passed by Chenggao (成臯; around present-day Xingyang, Henan) on the journey. There lived Lü Boshe, an old acquaintance of Cao Cao. Lü Boshe was not at home at that time. His sons and other guests attempted to rob Cao Cao of his horse and personal belongings. Cao Cao personally killed several of them.[1]

The Shiyu (世語) recorded:

Cao Cao passed by Lü Boshe's house. Lü Boshe was out but his five sons were at home. They welcomed Cao Cao like a guest and hosted a banquet for him. Cao Cao was on the run from Dong Zhuo at the time and he suspected that they were plotting to harm him. He killed eight persons that night and fled.[2]

The Zaji (雜記) recorded:

Cao Cao heard the sounds of cooking utensils (probably knives) and suspected that they (Lü Boshe's family) were plotting to harm him, so he killed them that night and fled. Afterwards, he heartrendingly remarked, "I'd rather do wrong to others than allow them to do wrong to me!" (寧我負人,毋人負我!) He then proceeded with his journey.[3]


Which is the most likely?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:29 pm

Impossible to know.

My personal opinion is that the story is entirely made up and that the version making Cao Cao the villain is the oldest
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:33 am

They were written in the order in which Pei Songzhi appended them to Cao Cao's biography.

The Weishu was written first and was one of the primary sources for the Sanguo Zhi, which subsequently rendered it mostly irrelevant. The Shiyu (which Pei Songzhi personally regarded as a poor source) was written by Guo Song, who lived near the end of the 3rd century (under Western Jin's rule). It was definitely written after the Weishu and Sanguo Zhi. The Zaiji is one of many works written by Sun Sheng, whi lived during the 4th century (302-375). His work certainly came last of the three.

The original Weishu version might be true, or it might just be a fabrication by Wei historians to drum up Cao Cao's reputation. The Shiyu and Zaiji versions are obvious corruptions of the same story altered to slander Cao Cao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Thanks!

I have another question, what is true about the incident with Guan Yu's arm being operated while he was playing a game or feasting like nothing was happening?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:16 pm

No, Hua Tuo (the doctor in the stories) died in 207, over a decade earlier.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:01 pm

Jia Shengde wrote:Thanks!

I have another question, what is true about the incident with Guan Yu's arm being operated while he was playing a game or feasting like nothing was happening?


The operation is in his biography though the doctor's name isn't recorded. Apparently he invited people over for a feast and the doctor worked on him while everyone was eating. A weird story that sounds fake to me but it is in the official history.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:45 am

Could be a case of the tale's details are somewhat exaggerated but Guan Yu had some medical treatment done without pain relief and in public. It is the sort of thing that adds lustre to a warrior and impresses the soldiers
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