Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:39 pm

Sun Fin wrote:In the novel Lady Sun leaves Liu Bei's court and returns to Wu. Did that happen in history as well?


Yes, as someone else will elaborate more then me.
Unlike in the novel it wasn't a happy marriage, neither one liked the other, she had tons of armed female guards which made Liu Bei feel uncomfortable, and he was several decades older then her so I doubt she found him to be a great catch.
He spent most of the time of their marriage away fighting so they didn't spend much time together. After Liu Bei took Yi Sun Quan got angry about Liu Bei not giving him the Jing province back so he ended the marriage alliance by recalling his sister back.
She tried to kidnap Liu Shan but she was forced to return him before she left.
Needless to say there is no record of her caring at all when Liu Bei died.
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2506
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:05 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Sima Yi vetoed one reform he admitted was a great idea simply becuase Cao Shuang's proposed it.


Talk about holding a grudge haha

-----

When I was reading up on Wang Ling yesterday, I realized that Sima Yi left a bloody mess wherever he went those last couple of years. I'd love a more trustworthy source on Wang Ling but, depending on what I read, he can potentially come off as sympathetic which makes Sima Yi eradicating his family sound more brutal. Then there are other sources where he was a flaming butthole to Man Chong and was basically asking for it. Either way, Sima Yi still comes off as rather brutal in nature to me, he absolutely did not put up with rebels which in hindsight is ironic.

It's hard to get a read on Sima Yi's intentions because his window of opportunity after making his move was fairly narrow, he made his move on Cao Shuang in 249 and got ill and died right after subduing Wang Ling in the fall of 251. So he had time to get in there and make his changes, but not really enough to stomp his feet and boldly claim that he was doing away with Wei. Considering how Cao Pi and Cao Rui demonstrated a decent amount of faith in him, I find it difficult to clearly justify his actions from 249 on, grudge against Cao Shuang or not. I do try to be sympathetic to him in general, but as mentioned he clearly left his sons with the ability to overthrow Wei if they felt inclined to do so, intentional or not. Occam's Razor would, I'd guess, suggest that he knew what he was doing and intended it.

-----

Line of succession: Yes, the moment you show some weakness in selecting the expected candidate as your successor, you open Pandora's Box. Happened with Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, and Sun Quan right in that very era, and there's also Liu Bei's case. Cao Fang probably came off as competent enough to Cao Rui, perhaps showed promise and intellect as a youth, and was the obvious candidate to choose according to tradition. Selecting a young heir was never ideal but was never definitively negative, some child emperors in China later grew up to be great rulers.

It's also worth pointing out, I wouldn't exactly label it a bloodline since there were so many cases of adoptions, but the direct family line, father to child succession, was paramount. DragonAtma's Zhuge Qiao is a great example to demonstrate this, they basically tried to do whatever they could to maintain that succession somehow. So Cao Rui passing over the young Cao Fang to pick another relative without any strong justification wouldn't pass muster.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3079
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:22 am

While "bloodline" may not be the perfect term, they usually go for known relatives, often fairly close relatives. Cao Rui adopted two of his first cousin's son, Zhuge Liang adopted his nephew, Zhuge Jin's bloodline readopted Zhuge Jin's grandson, more than one minor son/grandson of Cao Cao had their bloodline continued by the son of a different minor son/grandson, and so on.

Even Liu Feng (originally Kou Feng) had a mother from the Liu clan of Changsha, while Shi Ran (later Zhu Ran) was a nephew of Zhu Zhi. Liu Bei likely would have preferred a closer relative, except (due to his origin) I imagine most of his clan still lived near where Liu Bei was born (Youzhou, far from where Liu Bei lived at the time).
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

In memory of my beloved cats, Anastasia (9/30/06-9/18/17, illness) and Josephine (1/19/06-9/23/17, cancer).
DragonAtma
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:38 am

Right but my point in being a pedant and nitpicking over "bloodline" was just that they weren't trying to keep it broadly in the family (bloodline), they were ideally trying to set up that direct father/child succession specifically when it came to rulership, inheritance, and so forth. Otherwise, there are hundreds of Caos to choose from.

There are of course exceptions - we need look no further than Sun Ce/Sun Quan - but I wanted to indicate to greencactaur that it's generally a pretty good rule of thumb and that appointing Cao Fang despite his age wasn't all that weird to do.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3079
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:04 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Yes, as someone else will elaborate more then me.
Unlike in the novel it wasn't a happy marriage, neither one liked the other, she had tons of armed female guards which made Liu Bei feel uncomfortable, and he was several decades older then her so I doubt she found him to be a great catch.
He spent most of the time of their marriage away fighting so they didn't spend much time together. After Liu Bei took Yi Sun Quan got angry about Liu Bei not giving him the Jing province back so he ended the marriage alliance by recalling his sister back.
She tried to kidnap Liu Shan but she was forced to return him before she left.
Needless to say there is no record of her caring at all when Liu Bei died.


Ah so the fleeing happened in a way very similar to the novel?
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6669
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:51 pm

Yes but without Sun Quan needing to trick SSX
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14895
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:32 pm

Were Guo Tu and Guo Jia relatives? As far as I know, they both are from Yinchuan, so they probably belonged to the same clan. But are their exact family relations mentioned somewhere?
ivolga
Apprentice
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 4:02 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby plunged » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Maybe this is a silly question, but does a Chinese year start with spring? I came to think this because in Rafe's Emperor Huan and Emperor Ling the very first paragraph in the chapter for the year 184 starts with "in the spring", while the second paragraph starts with "in the second month".
Please check out: Gongjin's Campaign Memorials: a Three Kingdoms Wiki.
Now with translations of: He Jin, Huangfu Song, Zhu Jun, Lu Zhi, Cheng Pu, Sima Shi, Lady Wang and many more.

Read Romance of the Three Kingdoms online (with corrected names)
User avatar
plunged
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 753
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:57 pm

plunged wrote:Maybe this is a silly question, but does a Chinese year start with spring? I came to think this because in Rafe's Emperor Huan and Emperor Ling the very first paragraph in the chapter for the year 184 starts with "in the spring", while the second paragraph starts with "in the second month".

Yes, as per the Spring and Autumn annals the twelve months fall into seasons as follows:

1 - 3: Spring
4 - 6: Summer
7 - 9: Autumn
10 - 12: Winter

The Chinese calendar is luni-solar. A month always starts on New Moon. Winter solstice is always in the 11th Month.
Since the lunar year is only some 254 days, an extra month is inserted once every three or two years to keep the calendar in sync with the seasons
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
Fornadan
Assistant
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:00 pm

ivolga wrote:Were Guo Tu and Guo Jia relatives? As far as I know, they both are from Yinchuan, so they probably belonged to the same clan. But are their exact family relations mentioned somewhere?


If they were releated, it was distantly enough that no one ever found any reason to remark upon it. (Compare this to Gao Rou, who was Gao Gan's cousin and thus a distant relative of the Yuans.)

plunged wrote:Maybe this is a silly question, but does a Chinese year start with spring? I came to think this because in Rafe's Emperor Huan and Emperor Ling the very first paragraph in the chapter for the year 184 starts with "in the spring", while the second paragraph starts with "in the second month".


The first three months of the year were always considered "spring" although these months are usually winter months in the western calendar.
User avatar
capnnerefir
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:41 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved