Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cao Chao » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:09 am

capnnerefir wrote:I know he has an SGZ (attached to Xiahou Shang's) but I can't find a translation of that anywhere, and I have difficulty finding works that discuss his scholarly contributions as well (unlike, say, He Yan, about whom I was able to find a good amount of info).

I prefer to have primary sources for all of my information, so I'm really looking for translations or biographies from respected authorities.

I should have the SGZ translated by this weekend. Been a bit busy.
Jordan wrote:I found a passage in J. Michael Farmer's book about Qiao Zhou and Sichuan which I'm curious about. The passage is purported as being a passage from the Huayang Guozhi and states that in AD 258, the First Year of Jingyao by the Shu-Han calendar, Zhuge Dan defeated Jiang Wei.

I'm confused about this because this was the same year in which Zhuge Dan started his rebellion, I believe, and this rebellion happened very early in that year. Does anybody know more?

It could be Zhuge Xu.
曹操曰:宁教我负天下人,休教天下人负我!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:41 am

Cao Chao wrote:I should have the SGZ translated by this weekend. Been a bit busy.

Neat. I'm certainly capable of waiting. I found a (bad) translation a while ago, but it didn't include the information about Xiahou Xuan.

On another note, I'm trying to track down a bit of information about some minor players in Wu's political struggles.

Zhuge Ke had a nephew named Zhu En (the son of his sister). Bt seems likely that this Zhu En would probably be from the same family as either Zhu Ran or Zhu Huan, but I can't really find any information about him.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zorkaz » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:28 pm

Does anyone know how Cao Chong (Cao Cao's favoured son) died? I read he died of illness, but are there any other informations?
And also are there any legends or rumours around this incident?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jordan » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:23 am

It could be Zhuge Xu.


That would possibly make more sense, but in that case it means Farmer made an error, since the book definitely says Zhuge Dan.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tarrot » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:24 am

Zorkaz wrote:Does anyone know how Cao Chong (Cao Cao's favoured son) died? I read he died of illness, but are there any other informations?
And also are there any legends or rumours around this incident?


Cao Chong died in 208. I thought it was due to a plague, but I double-checked and there was nothing related to it. The only real story about it is that Cao Cao had executed Hua Tuo, and when Cao Chong died he regretted his decision since he couldn't save Cao Chong.

As for rumors, from the most recent ROTK series,
they did it like Cao Pi assassinated Cao Chong because he recognized that he was a threat to Cao Pi's ascension. Cao Cao would interrogate Cao Pi, but Cao Pi's will in refusing to admit he did it impressed Cao Cao so much that he would name Cao Pi heir from it.
I would assume that there was some sort of play based around this incident like that, since there were so many, but to my knowledge it wasn't in popular ROTK folklore.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Youjie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:39 am

I Need To Ask

how Many Battles Lu Kang And Yang Hu Fight Each Other?
Man Like Youjie Who protected his Kingdom
from Jin attacks
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:32 am

I think it was only one major camapign, the Bu Chan revolt?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:01 am

Could someone clarify Liu Yu's pedigree for me?

ZZTJ says: "Liu Yu was a grandson in the fifth generation from the Respectful King of Donghai."

I'm not sure who the Respectful King of Donghai was or what emperor he was related to and I'm not sure where to look that up.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tarrot » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:41 am

Looking it up, history of Kings of Donghai, with the times they reigned.

Liu Xian (200-end of the Han)
Liu Zhi (156-200)
Liu Zhen (125-156)
Liu Su (102-125)
Liu Zheng (58-102, of note he had more than 20 sons)
Liu Qiang (41ish-58)

I think the ZZTJ translation is a little wonky. Grandson of the 5th generation would probably mean great-great-grandson or great X3 grandson. Wiki lists his ancestor as Liu Jiang/Qiang, King of Donghai. Bio for Jiang/Qiang according to Rafe.

Liu Qiang (25-58). Eldest son of Emperor Guangwu by the Lady Guo, when his mother
was named empress in 26 he was appointed Heir. In 41, however, the Lady Guo was
deposed and two years later Liu Qiang was removed as Heir. Changing places with his
half-brother, the future Emperor Ming, he became King of Donghai.
In 52 Liu Qiang and other sons of the Lady Guo were sent to their fiefs, but Guangwu,
recognizing that Liu Qiang had lost the inheritance through no fault of his own, granted
him special privileges of guards and music, enlarged his fief by almost thirty counties,
and included the territory of Lu so that he might live in the splendid Lingguang Palace [of
Numinous Brilliance].
Soon after the death of Guangwu in 57, Liu Qiang's half-brother Jing sent him a forged
letter, purporting to come from his maternal uncle Guo Kuang, and citing favourable
omens that he should take the throne from the new emperor. Liu Qiang immediately
sealed the document and forwarded it to the throne. The affair was covered up, but Liu
Jing was exiled from the capital. In the following year Liu Qiang died of illness, having
presented an eloquent apologia. Emperor Ming admired his loyalty, granted special
honours and paid respects to his tomb. -HHS 42/32:1423 -25 *; Bn 67 :2732.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:52 pm

Farmer's book mentions a number of historical historians that hailed from Sichuan and/or served Shu-Han who I'm curious about. Aside from Yang Xi, they don't seem to be in the KA encyclopedia. Does anybody know more information about Chen Shu (zi Shenbo), Ren Xi, Yang Xi and Zuo Si?
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