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Re: i have one

Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:04 am

si ma yian wrote:did si ma yi realy hack wei??? i mean did he realy like getting army and bulid his own kingdoom??? and is zheng ji wife of yuan tan?? and got rap by cao pi? :)

It's Sima Yi. And Zhen Ji.

BTW, have you ever heard of grammar?
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Re: Was Lü Bu (Fengxian) a descendant of Lü Buwei?

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:05 am

Tianshan Zi wrote:I've looked at the available information about Lü Bu at KMA and in my own sources, but I cannot find an answer to the following question. Was Lü Bu (Fengxian) a descendant of Lü Buwei, the much earlier prime minister of Qin and author of the Spring & Autumn Annals? (If so, what was the nature of the ancestry--direct, indirect, adopted, etc.?) Thank you in advance. :)

Interesting idea, where you got this idea anyway, i looked through Lu Bu SGZ bio, it didn't really tell that. If based on the tales (?), Lu Buwei suppose to be the father to Shi Huang Di, that's mean Lu Bu was the son to...... :roll:

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Re: i have one

Unread postby jiuwan » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:25 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:Yes, Zhen Ji was the wife of either Yuan Tan or Yuan Xi, not remember. Not say got rap by Cao Pi but Cao Pi marry her after defeated Yuan Tan or Xi. 8-)

It was Yuan Xi that Zhen Ji was married to. After Cao Cao wiped out the Yuan family for total dominance of the area. Cao Pi then took Zhen Ji as his wife.
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Re: Was Lü Bu (Fengxian) a descendant of Lü Buwei?

Unread postby Tianshan Zi » Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:58 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:Interesting idea, where you got this idea anyway, i looked through Lu Bu SGZ bio, it didn't really tell that. If based on the tales (?), Lu Buwei suppose to be the father to Shi Huang Di, that's mean Lu Bu was the son to...... :roll:


It was merely a passing thought that I had a few days ago. I was simply asking based on the fact that the surname "Lü" was quite old among the nobility. I have only my imagination and curiosity to blame for the idea! :lol:
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Unread postby Jon » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:15 am

hey, i hope this wasn't asked before, but does anybody know atleast one name of zhou yu's 2 sons?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:31 am

zhou_yu_musou03 wrote:hey, i hope this wasn't asked before, but does anybody know atleast one name of zhou yu's 2 sons?

The elder son was called Zhou Xun and the younger one, Zhou Xi. The elder son was said to be resemble closely to Zhou Yu but he died young. In addition, Zhou Yu had a daughter who was married to Sun Deng.
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:55 am

Okay I'm wondering how the wives,daughters and sisters were treated. You always here how Cao Cao is ..well we know how he was said to be..yet I read somewhere he was (Cao men though I doubt we can include Cao Pi here) treated their wives well. Yet you have Cao Pi having Lady Zhen commit suicide. And what about Liu Bei and Sun Shang for example? My understanding is they did love each why wouldn't he want his wife back when she went back to see her suppossedly dying mother? And why wouldn't she go back once she saw it was all a trick? I mean she did kill herself right? So why not just go back to him? And what kind of brother would order his sister to be killed? Granted he took her back ...Anyway I know it's a tough question but my curiosity is sky high and I had to ask.
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Unread postby Starscream » Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:14 am

Liu Bei and Lady Sun's marriage is more of a political arrangement to seal Shu and Wu's alliance and is not exactly out of romance. Liu Bei was so much older than Lady Sun, according to SGYY, I doubt seriously if any love can blossom. Liu Bei was far away in Yizhou area when Lady Sun made her way back to Wu after she's tricked into believing that her mother had taken seriously ill. She was unable to return to Shu, since she would have to go through Sun Quan first. Sun Quan would not allow his sister to return to Jingzhou since that might mean sending his sister to Liu Bei as hostage. Lady Sun was a married woman, and even though she might not be married to the "right" person, she's nevertheless married, and upon hearing her husband's death, she would rather die than to be a widow due to her pride. Sun Quan as portrayed in SGYY, was not a very good brother, was he?? hahahaha!! It's just my guesses. :roll:
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:22 am

As for historically, I don't think there was much love between Lady Sun and Liu Bei. There's only a few mentions of Lady Sun in SGZ, most of them indicating Liu Bei being somewhat distanted from her.

She's mentioned in Fa Zheng's bio, which indicates her as being very boyish and had many guards, and whenever Liu Bei went into her room he became anxious:

Fa Zheng SGZ bio wrote:初,孙权以妹妻先主,妹才捷刚猛,有诸兄之风,侍婢百馀人,皆亲执刀侍立,先主每入,衷心常凛凛;亮又知先主雅爱信正,故言如此。

In ZYBZ in Zhao Yun's bio (Pei's annotations) it mentions Sun Quan calling back Lady Sun; originally Lady Sun wanted to return with Liu Shan but Zhao Yun took Liu Shan away. This was also mentioned in Empress Miao's bio in Pei's annotations, based on Han Jin Chun Qiu:

Empress Miao SGZ bio (Pei annotations) wrote:汉晋春秋云:先主入益州,吴遣迎孙夫人。夫人欲将太子归吴,诸葛亮使赵云勒兵断江留太子,乃得止。
(HJCQ says: the First Sovereign entered Yi Zhou, Wu send people to call back Lady Sun. Lady Sun originally planned to take Liu Shan with her, but Zhuge Liang ordered Zhao Yun to take Liu Shan back)

She's also mentioned briefly in the original text of Lady Miao's SGZ bio:

Empress Miao SGZ bio wrote:先主既定益州,而孙夫人还吴,群下劝先主聘后。先主疑与瑁同族,法正进曰:“论其亲疏,何与晋文之于子圉乎?”于是纳后为夫人。
(The first Sovereign pacified Yi Zhou, at the time Lady Sun returned to Wu. Many advised the first Sovereign to make Lady Miao Empress. The first Sovereign suspected she was related to Mao and hesitated. Fa Zheng gave him an advise and he made Lady Miao Empress)

Apparently Liu Bei didn't think much of Lady Sun after she left, so I doubt that he had much love for her.

Also, there's no mention of Lady Sun killing herself after Liu Bei died, so I'm assuming that she didn't.

As for how wives, daughters, sisters were treated, I guess it depends who it is. In general, women had very low status back then and were obligated to obey their family or husbands (if married) completely. So how they were treated would depend on who it is.

As for Liu Bei, I don't think he was all that considerate for his wives since he abandoned them for quite a few times without much remorse. Sun Quan in history didn't have Lady Sun marry Liu Bei as a plot to kill Liu Bei, it was more of a pure diplomatic marriage, and he bothered to call her back before going hostile with Liu Bei, so I suppose he treated Lady Sun okay, while being more on the manipulative side. I'm not too sure about how Cao Cao treated his wives and daughters.
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Unread postby Jon » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:28 pm

thanks, zhou xun and zhou xi-does anybody know if you can give your characters ,long hair on create a general in DW4?off topic i know
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