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Unread postby jiuwan » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:32 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:What exactly does it mean in Jiang Wan's SGZ bio when it says, "Zhuge Liang established the Prime Minister's office?"


Well the problem with SGZ is that it was written a long time ago. Back then the writing is more compact and takes a lot more understanding of the literature to understand it completely. With the exact same words, a modern reader would view it as one way, while an ancient reader would view it slightly different with more meaning.
This causes a disparity of the possible interpreted meaning. Back then, most people that could read were very educated and usually understood the meaning of everything they read on a basic level. And then there are scholars that take the same material and interpreted with a deeper more meaningful meaning. Disadvantage - a lot of people were illiterate.
In modern times, less people are illiterate. Although they can read the same material from ancient times, most would only comprehend the basic meaning of the material. It takes someone will a farther education to comprehend the deeper meaning. A great example is Sun Tzu's book: The Art of War. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying modern readers are not knowledgeable as the ancient counterparts. It's just that the language has evolved and changed over the years. That's where the additional education comes in - knowing when it's modern text or ancient text.
There's not much differences overall, but it's just bad luck that you picked a particular text that comes under this situation.

Now the passage you've highlighted : "Zhuge Liang established the Prime Minister's office" was translated by Chen Qiang for KMA.
The original chinese text for Jiang Wan's SGZ bio is as follows:
"建興元年,丞相亮開府...."
Translation: <i>In the first year of Jiang Xing, the Prime Minister Zhuge Liang raised his estate.</i>

Notice the difference between his translation and mine? While Chen Qiang used the word 'office' for 府, I chosed to use the word 'estate' for the same word. Here's why - In modern times, the word 府 would translate into prefecture, prefect, or government office. Which is a correct translation on Chen Qiang's part. (He did an excellant job of translating by the way)
Now I've used the word 'estate' for 府, because back in ancient times, that's what is was. That's what 府 would translate into. Back in ancient times, when a person of high official ranking had a home it was usually referred to as 府. This 'special' house/estate was built by the emperor himself. The emperor would order the construction of this estate for the high ranking official in his court. This newly constructed estate would then be the home for that particular officer. Usually it's built for someone that was important.
On the main gate, just up above the entry way there would be a huge sign saying who's estate it is. The sign would be made up of that person's last name (family name) and then the word 府. So in Zhuge Liang's case, in front of the main gate of his estate it would read either: 諸 葛 府 or 丞 相 府 (Zhuge's estate or Prime Minister's estate).

So it could be more accurate to say in that year Zhuge Liang's estate was built instead of the prime minister's office was built. The whole sentence would then be:
建興元年,丞相亮開府,辟琬為東曹掾
Translation: <i>In the first year of Jiang Xing, Zhuge Liang's estate was built, and he ruled that Jiang Wan would be the Dong Cao Yuan.</i>

Sorry for this being so long, but it should clear up everything.
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Unread postby grand master of san guo » Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:08 pm

whats the difference between san guo zhi and san guo yan yi?
" cao cao has more than million army, but there is nothing to fear about." we must ally. so that we can bring peace to the world!!
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Unread postby Jon » Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:21 pm

different authors and perspectives.
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Unread postby grand master of san guo » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:14 pm

which one is true?? and what change in there>
" cao cao has more than million army, but there is nothing to fear about." we must ally. so that we can bring peace to the world!!
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Unread postby jiuwan » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:29 pm

grand master of san guo wrote:whats the difference between san guo zhi and san guo yan yi?
zhou_yu_musou03 wrote:different authors and perspectives.


While what zhou_yu_musou03 is true there is another aspect between the two as well. SGZ was written as a historical documentation, detailing the events and facts as accurately as possible. It can be used as a source of reference to history. SGYY was written as a novel, derived from SGZ, that included legends and folkores. It can't be used as a historical reference as SGZ because it's a novel.
As for all the differences there's way too much to list off, please refer to this thread for some of them....
<A HREF = "http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=2826">Differences between SGZ and SGYY</A>
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Unread postby Kingdom of Cheng » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:39 am

Could Zhang Fei or Guan Yu over throw Liu Bei?
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Unread postby jiuwan » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:21 am

Cao Hong wrote:Could Zhang Fei or Guan Yu over throw Liu Bei?

Anyone could have. If you wanted to turn traitor and if chance permitted then anything is possible. It's called the art of backstabbing close friends.
Or in Sima Yi's case. Careful planning. Set up the foundation for your family clan to replace existing rule. Some can view what Sima Yi and his sons did was treason, or they can view it simply as the strong replacing the weak. E.g. a stronger dynasty replacing a weak one. What ever you like to view it as.

As in the case of Liu, Guan, and Zhang "brothers" I think in my opinion it is highly unlikely. Although in history there was no mention of their sworn oath in the peach garden. There are traces of evidence that Liu Bei treated them like brothers. With each other treathing the other like close brothers, betrayal is most likely unlikely. Possible but unlikely.
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Unread postby Cao Zhi » Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:36 am

How would one compare Lu Bu with Xiang Yu? As far as I know, Xiang Yu was at the same time a mighty warrior in personal combat as well as a skilled battlefield commander. Lu Bu, on the other hand, was unbeatable in single combat and fairly competant on the field, but he relied more on his own personal bravery to carry the day rather than use any subterfuge. If this assessment is accurate, how would the two men fare if pitted against each other in bother personal combat as well as the heads of armies?
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:12 pm

did Zhuge Liang wrote a book made a song,peoms and made any other invention in his time? i remember i heard someone from longzhong village sing and liu bei heard him the old man said zhugeliang made the song.
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Unread postby rcsha » Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:07 pm

Zhugeliang wrote:did Zhuge Liang wrote a book made a song,peoms and made any other invention in his time? i remember i heard someone from longzhong village sing and liu bei heard him the old man said zhugeliang made the song.


It was common for scholars at that time to write poetry and the likes, so I would gander that yes Zhuge Liang porbably wrote some poems. Inventions? Well Zhuge Liang invented numerous things, such as the Shippu-Rendo, Double-Bolt Crossbows, Spying Lanterns for night battles, etc.

As for a song that was sung to Liu Bei by someone who knew Zhuge Liang...the only occurance I can recall is Tan Fu (Xu Shu) singing to get Liu Bei's attention, it's one of my favorite songs:
Xu Shu wrote:The univers is riven alack! Now nears the end of all,
A noble mansion quakes alack! What beam can stay the fall?
A wise one wait shis lord, alack! But hidden in the glen,
The seeker knows not him, alack! Nor me of common men.
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