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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:40 pm
by rcsha
WilliamL wrote:By the way... you both confused me :? lol
So for the Northern campaigns, the first campaign started in the year 227 and the first invasion started in 228 right :wink:


Yes, basically it's campaign versus invasion. I feel that the Zhuge Liang's first Northern Expedition started when the campaign was initiated and he moved the troops to Han Zhong; while Jiuwan believes it started when Zhuge Liang advanced those troops into Wei territoy.

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:32 pm
by grand master of san guo
on zhuge liang's northern campaing why dont he use men huo??? and if he use men huo's amory solider( teng jia soldier) he probley will get alot state even chan an. because i dont think sima yi will discover they are weak anginst fire so fast.

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:49 pm
by rcsha
grand master of san guo wrote:on zhuge liang's northern campaing why dont he use men huo??? and if he use men huo's amory solider( teng jia soldier) he probley will get alot state even chan an. because i dont think sima yi will discover they are weak anginst fire so fast.


The Man forces, though pacified, were not very loyal and were not easy to control, so they wouldn't have been too good to take so far away from their homes and use in battle. They probably would have rebelled if used in en masse.

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:54 pm
by grand master of san guo
do u think wei yan's suggest might be good?? (from zhuge liang's campain he said " i will go through some kind of tunel and 1 mouth i will reach chang an and i can meet u there prime minster."" so do u think that can work if zhuge liang accept it?? and why didnt he accept it?

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:10 am
by jiuwan
WilliamL wrote:I'm sorry too I don't want to be picky... :oops:
However if you look at Zhang He SGZ bio:

〔 一 〕   魏 略 曰 : 亮 軍 退 , 司 馬 宣 王使 郃 追 之 , 郃 曰 : 「 軍 法 , 圍 城 必 開 出 路 , 歸 軍 勿 追 。」 宣 王 不 聽 。 郃 不 得 已 , 遂 進 。 蜀 軍 乘 高 布 伏 , 弓 弩 亂發 , 矢 中 郃 髀 。


Silly me, I forgot about that passage in Zhang He's bio. Thanks for bringing it up. Anyways I'll translate it for the other readers that can't read chinese.

<i>Zhuge Liang's armies was in the midst of retreating. Sima Yi ordered Zhang He to give chase to the retreating army. Zhang He replied: "According to military tactics: When a city is in seige, an escape route must be opened up; When an army is retreating, pursue not."
Sima Yi heeded not Zhang He's words and ordered the pursuit. Zhang He led the chase, but was ambushed by the Shu army from a higher ground. An arrow storm was unleashed causing chaos amongst the army. In the midst of the chaos, Zhang He died.</i>

I guess Chen Shou missed something when he wrote Zhuge Liang's bio :lol: Which kinda helps me, cuz I made a point earlier in another thread, how SGZ is sorta biased and it's not 100% truth and historical. But that's getting off topic.

WilliamL wrote:Also from the book of New ER Shi Wu Shi SGZ (二十五史新編: 三 國 志 ) it says the same thing.
張郃率軍追擊, 中蜀軍埋伏, 被射殺.


This passage translates to: <i>Zhang He led his armies out to chase the Shu army, but was ambushed and killed by arrows.</i>
A little more compact but to the point.

So anyone that's been following this question on Zhuge Liang's campaigns. In the fourth campaign, Zhuge Liang managed to ambush <b>and</b>
kill Zhang He with arrows. There that should clear it up.

P.S. You want to tell me where you found 二十五史新編: 三 國 志? I would like to read it if it's on the web.

WilliamL wrote:By the way... you both confused me :? lol
So for the Northern campaigns, the first campaign started in the year 227 and the first invasion started in 228 right :wink:


I think rcsha explained that pretty well. It's all a matter of perspectives. Like is the glass half empty or half full sorta way. The "campaign" was iniated in 227 by Zhuge, where the forces gather at Han Zhong. The "invasion" into Wei territories was in 228. So either way of viewing it should be fine. As long as you don't say the first campaign started in 194 A.D. :lol:

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:27 am
by jiuwan
grand master of san guo wrote:cao cao is not the empire of wei, but why they call him wei wu de


I think you meant to say was "Cao Cao is not the emperor of Wu, but he was called the Wu di" right?

Well when Cao Cao's son - Cao Pi ascended to the throne, Cao Cao was given the posthumas title of Wu Di (Wu Emperor or something like that) which is 武帝 in chinese. The Wu that you are thinking of is from the Wu kingdom, which in chinese is the character for 吳 國 (the Wu Kingdom).

Although in the english pinyin "Wu" is used for both occasions, it is not so in chinese. In chinese it's two different words. It's just how the english pinyin system works. There's Wu1, Wu2, Wu 3 and so forth for all the english pinyin. Chinese characters are a lot more compicated. So you gotta be careful for that.

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:37 am
by jiuwan
grand master of san guo wrote:do u think wei yan's suggest might be good?? (from zhuge liang's campain he said " i will go through some kind of tunel and 1 mouth i will reach chang an and i can meet u there prime minster."" so do u think that can work if zhuge liang accept it?? and why didnt he accept it?


Well that's just speculation. Because it didn't happen, both sides can argue till the cows come home on whether it'll work or not.
As to why Zhuge Liang didn't accept the proposal is because... Zhuge's planning in the military campaigns didn't allow for much flexibilty. If something went wrong, then the whole campaign would be cancelled and a retreat was given. Such as the Ma Su incident. Now this has some advantages and disadvantages for him.

Such as:
Advantage - Shu didn't lose much troops and resources unlike Jiang Wei's campaigns.

Disadvantage - Shu didn't gain in grounds in terms of a complete conquest of Wei and re-unify China.

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:28 am
by WilliamL
I see, difference of the word used (invasion vs campaign ). Thanks both of you.


jiuwan wrote:
Silly me, I forgot about that passage in Zhang He's bio. Thanks for bringing it up. Anyways I'll translate it for the other readers that can't read chinese.

<i>Zhuge Liang's armies was in the midst of retreating. Sima Yi ordered Zhang He to give chase to the retreating army. Zhang He replied: "According to military tactics: When a city is in seige, an escape route must be opened up; When an army is retreating, pursue not."
Sima Yi heeded not Zhang He's words and ordered the pursuit. Zhang He led the chase, but was ambushed by the Shu army from a higher ground. An arrow storm was unleashed causing chaos amongst the army. In the midst of the chaos, Zhang He died.</i>


You are welcome and thanks too. Since my English isn't that good, so I didn't translated ...

jiuwan wrote:
I guess Chen Shou missed something when he wrote Zhuge Liang's bio :lol: Which kinda helps me, cuz I made a point earlier in another thread, how SGZ is sorta biased and it's not 100% truth and historical. But that's getting off topic.

Well I would say that all the facts are not recorded in one bio. Some facts are written in one bio and some are recorded in the others. Every events are written concisely. But yeah, I'm agreed SGZ is not 100% accurate.


jiuwan wrote:
This passage translates to: <i>Zhang He led his armies out to chase the Shu army, but was ambushed and killed by arrows.</i>
A little more compact but to the point.


P.S. You want to tell me where you found 二十五史新編: 三 國 志? I would like to read it if it's on the web.

Unfortunately I did not took from the net and I don't know if someone put it online...:roll:
However I can give you some informations about that book, which you should be able to find it in Chinatown at Vancouver(if you truly live there :lol: )

The New ER Shi Wu Shi books (二十五史新編 ) are published by the company of Zhong Hua Shu Ju (中華書局), Hong Kong.
15 books in total.
The SGZ’s one is the fourth one.
These books are written in Traditional Chinese (HK you know...)
All the bios are written in a much easy way than the original SGZ, for an easy understanding.


grand master of san guo wrote:
cao cao is not the empire of wei, but why they call him wei wu de

What I think he wants to say is why Cao Cao got the title of Wei, since before he dies, the empire/kingdom of Wei was not built or declared officially. But I see you give the answer too :)

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:24 am
by SoSZ Patch 0506C
Did Liu Bei historically have anything to do with suppression of the Yellow Turban rebellion?

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:15 pm
by Stefanos
The_Phat_One wrote:Did Liu Bei historically have anything to do with suppression of the Yellow Turban rebellion?


Yes, historically he did recruit a volunteer army and he did do battle with them. But, afterwards, it is thought that Xuande joined the battle against Dong Zhuo, which is... false. Liu Bei never fought Lu Bu at Hulao, nor did he even join in the coalition.