Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Gongsun Z. » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:54 pm

Hello greencactaur, :)

greencactaur wrote:In the novel, and in historical writings there are examples of troop types being classified as "light" or "elite". For example when Lu bu was besieged by Cao Cao, I believe reading Yuan shu send 3000 light cavalry to aid Lu bu, but was intercepted by cao troops. My question is what are the differences between a light or elite infantry? Also how many troop types existed?


I checked about your question in the novel. I’ll add personal observations I’ve had in reading SGZ and put the equivalent in Chinese to understand that point. So here it is.

Light Cavalry is 輕騎 (qingji, or you can also found qinqi it’s the same)

Like Sun Fin and Dong Zhou said, light cavalry is mounted soldier without a complete armor. The purpose here is to move quickly.
So, light cavalry is regularly used to reach fast some position or quickly surround enemies with great number.

We have got messengers too…
Internuncios 謁者 (yezhe) and emissaries 使者 (shizhe)
I believe internuncios are to bring messages through the lines (between the severals commandants) and emissaries are messengers for enemies or allies.

We also have got Mounted Scout 探馬 (tanma), who must check ahead an army to avoid ambushes and help to draw the plans of the passes, mountains....

As for the other type of cavalry, elite cavalry...

Elite Cavalry is 鐵騎 (tieji, or you can also found tieqi) but, and that’s the point, 鐵 (tie) means ‘iron’ as well as ‘heavy, violent, unshakable’.
That said, we can understand that 鐵騎 (tieji) means also Armored/Heavy Cavalry… by opposition of Light Cavalry ! :D
The rest is just a translation matter.

Armored Cavalry’s purpose is to breach the front lines with violence and crush the enemies.
I don’t really know if there is a real difference of training between the two types, because all the soldiers are trained, for the different purposes I guess. Remember that horses are a difficult resource to collect in time of war. That’s explaining the fact a Warlord try to steel it from his enemies, than just being them killed. At the time of the Three Kingdoms, number of horses are also important than numbers of soldiers.
I know Armored Cavalry will develop in the era just after, in Jin period, with cataphracterium, which unit consist to protect not only the mounted soldier, but also the horse with a complete armor. It’s a speciality providing from Liang Province if I’m right. Maybe some specialist of the Jin period can help more in that question than I can.

I must have forgotten lot of types of cavalry, but there are the principal ones that hit my mind. I hope my answer can help.


To avoid double post, I will reply you here, Dong Zhou. :o

Dong Zhou wrote:From Liu Zan's Wushu bio in Sun Jun's SGZ

Liú Zàn appellation Zhèngmíng, was a Kuàijī Chángshān man. When he young he was appointed a commandery official, and with the Yellow Scarves rebel commander Wú Huán fought, and with his own hand beheaded Huán. Zàn in one leg had been injured, and thereafter it was crooked and could not extend.


1) When roughly did Liu Zan kill Wu Huan?

2) Is my reading correct and Liu Zan's leg injury was due to the battle?


1) I checked the ZZTJ and 'General of the South' by De Crespigny in that question: there is no trace of Wu Huan (吳桓) at all. :roll:
I assume he's a minor chieftain of the remning Yellow Turban who had the chance of being personaly killed by a future personality of Wu. It is precised that the story happen in the young days of Liu Zan. There are no date indicated, so we must take out our investigator magnifying glass. Liu Zan is born in 183 and we can imagine he did'nt become a soldier before he got 14 years old. It is said after that he was recruited by Ling Tong and presented to Sun Quan after hearing his exploits. Ling Tong was renowned after 208, and died in 217. So we can tell that Wu Huan was surely killed between 207 and 217. If we can know the activities of Yellow Turbans south of the Changjiang (with the death of other chieftains for example*), we can be more specific within the given range. My personnal guess is around 208-210, after the time where Ling Tong was named Commandant (in 208), the perfect timing to recommand a young officer to his Lord.

*The only information I got ( :shock: ) on Yellow Turbans in the South is in 'Biographical Dictionary of the Three Kingdoms': It is said that 'the son of Liu Zhong, King of Ganling, was killed (even in 206, when the Kingdom was abolished by the Han government of Cao Cao, or before)'.

Is anyone got another clue or source to check out that precise point ?

2) Thought it is in the same sentence, we can assume that Liu Zan were injured in the leg in the battle mentioned, so against the Yellow Turbans.

EDIT: You're welcome Dong Zhou. I appreciate to help ! :D

:idea: Another thing blow my mind on this subject. Just like Liu Bei, Liu Zan were wounded by the Yellow Turbans. He split his blood for a just cause, and were no doubt be praised for that like a local hero. No matter Ling Tong considered it before presenting him to Sun Quan.
Last edited by Gongsun Z. on Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:35 am

Thank you for the well thought out answers Gongsun Z.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:27 am

Hi guys, when i played RoTK 14 i come across a really unusual fellow named Xi Zhen. and i found out there were two Xi Zhen's in it. could you gives me a detail of both fellow?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:30 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:Hi guys, when i played RoTK 14 i come across a really unusual fellow named Xi Zhen. and i found out there were two Xi Zhen's in it. could you gives me a detail of both fellow?


Xi Zhen (Wenxian) from Nan, his youngster sister married Pang Tong's brother Lin and the couple ended up separated for a time due to chaos of war as the Pang's and Xi Zhen went with Liu Bei. Xi Zhen was skilled at rhetoric and held in same regard as Pang Tong, he served as a magistrate and then an administrator in Yi for Liu Bei.

I'm wondering if the second Xi Zhen is Xi Zheng the Liu Shan loyalist? Otherwise I don't know a second Xi Zhen.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Li_Shengsun wrote:Hi guys, when i played RoTK 14 i come across a really unusual fellow named Xi Zhen. and i found out there were two Xi Zhen's in it. could you gives me a detail of both fellow?


Xi Zhen (Wenxian) from Nan, his youngster sister married Pang Tong's brother Lin and the couple ended up separated for a time due to chaos of war as the Pang's and Xi Zhen went with Liu Bei. Xi Zhen was skilled at rhetoric and held in same regard as Pang Tong, he served as a magistrate and then an administrator in Yi for Liu Bei.

I'm wondering if the second Xi Zhen is Xi Zheng the Liu Shan loyalist? Otherwise I don't know a second Xi Zhen.


the second Xi Zhen read this in chinese 習珍 (unless my chinese reading were wrong, did check mr.google as well). he died during Xiaoting. so, thats most likely not Xi Zheng you mention.

-Edit- and yes, he's Liu Bei's loyalist, chooses to die rather then surrender to Wu. Although he did surrender by his brother's advice when Lu Meng invaded Jingzhou.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:26 am

I have searched the kongming.encyclopaedia for any Xi Z's and I have searched De Crespigny's encyclopaedia for those that died in 222, none match the guy your describing. Hopefully someone else will be able to track this figure down
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:55 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I have searched the kongming.encyclopaedia for any Xi Z's and I have searched De Crespigny's encyclopaedia for those that died in 222, none match the guy your describing. Hopefully someone else will be able to track this figure down


習珍 180-221

蜀の武将。習宏の兄。
【演義】記述なし。
【正史】弟と共に劉備に仕え、零陵北部尉として関羽に属した。219年、呂蒙が荊州に侵攻して関羽が討たれると、弟の助言に従い、捲土重来を期して一旦は呉に降伏。のち樊胄らと組んで挙兵し、七県を占拠して邵陵[ショウリョウ]太守を称したが、潘濬との戦いに敗れ自害した。

If you would or anyone that can read moonrunes, plz translate it for me. its hard for me to figure out every single word of it since my Japanese are bad. i even had to screenshot them and have ocr to figure out the wording.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:26 pm

Curious about something since I've been looking through a few things lately related to what happened to the Zhuge family after the Three Kingdoms era. Were the Eastern Jin Emperors descendants of Zhuge Dan?

Although Zhuge Dan was killed after his failed rebellion vs. the Sima family, some of his descendants managed to live on. His son Zhuge Jing was sent to Wu as a hostage, and survived into Jin times. His daughter, meanwhile, became the consort of Sima Yi's son Sima Zhou. Incidentally, this may have been partly why Zhuge Jing was spared, as Zhuge Jing's sister was now linked to the Sima family by marriage (funny coincidence of history that these two families ended up mixing, but true).

Sima Zhou was a somewhat noteworthy figure in his own right, participating in the eventual conquest of Wu. Posthumously he was given the name "武王" "The Martial Prince" or something along those lines, and his sons were all given part of his fief. One of his sons was Sima Jin, who sired Sima Rui, the eventual founder of Eastern Jin.

Now while it's tempting to conclude that Sima Rui was therefore the descendant of Zhuge Dan's daughter, and therefore Zhuge Dan himself, I am not quite sure about that. What I don't know is the parentage of Sima Zhou's children. I don't know if Sima Zhou had other concubines or wives. But if Sima Jin was the son of Zhuge Dan's daughter, then the Eastern Jin Emperors were related not only to the Sima, but to the Zhuge. Does anybody know more? If I understand this right, it also seems like Sima Jin married someone from the Xiahou clan, so the founder of Eastern Jin may have been related to the Sima, Xiahou and Zhuge clans all in one lol.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:31 pm

I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated anywhere who Sima Jin's mother was, but I think it's reasonable to assume it was Lady Zhuge. Sima Zhou's third son Sima Yao is said to have used the coup against Yang Jun in 291 as an excuse to have Wen Yang executed on false charges, because he suspected Wen Yang was a threat to his mother's family.

Sima Rui's mother was Xiahou Guangji, daughter of Xiahou Zhuang and granddaughter of Xiahou Wei.
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:10 pm

Alternative account
The Jin pretender Sima Rui, courtesy name Jingwen, was the son of the Jin general Niu Jin#. Earlier, Emperor Xuan of Jin begot the Great General, King Wu of Langye, Zhou. Zhou begot the Supervisor of the Extra Retinue, King Gong of Langye, Jin¤. Jin¤’s Consort, Ms. Xiahou of Qiao state, courtesy name Tonghuan, had faithless relations with Jin#, and thereupon begot Rui. For that reason [he?] pretended to the Sima family, continuing as Jin¤’s son. Because of that he spoke of himself as a native of Wen in Heinei.


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