Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby MasterG0819 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:57 am

Dong Zhou wrote:What do people think of Xu You nowadays?

I remember back way back when, he was seen as smart, his defection key for Guandu but the circumstances of his defection put a cloud over him. Do people still feel that way?


I haven’t seen many people talk about him. He comes up once in a while but it’s rear, with it seeming like most people don’t care about him since not much is known/from the novel especially which is where he’s mainly known from he’s a arrogant, greedy and corrupt man. This somewhat improved in some places because of the 2010 series which shows him in a better, albeit mostly false, light(he’s still arrogant but he’s very smart to where he’s clearly Yuan Shao’s best adviser.) I see him as a guy who I don't know enough about to form a opinion. From what is recorded he seems like a somewhat smart, indeed somewhat corrupt and arrogant man but the reason he’s a big deal is in how his defection came at a key moment in one of the most important campaigns of the time. He just didn’t do much else that made it into the records and remembering things such as Xiahou Dun, Ling Tong and Lü Meng having each killed a guy at one point makes me hesitant to form a opinion on him based on such little knowledge.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:45 am

Yes he hasn't been talked about awhile, was something something and was wondering if those attitudes had changed. Thank you for the honest and thoughtful answer
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:08 am

Has anyone here ever read the Taiping jing?

Perhaps better known as The Book of Great Peace. Yes, that is the same title as the book that the sources say was given to Zhang Jue, although there is debate about whether it is the same text.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ZL181 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:25 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Has anyone here ever read the Taiping jing?

Perhaps better known as The Book of Great Peace. Yes, that is the same title as the book that the sources say was given to Zhang Jue, although there is debate about whether it is the same text.


No, I've never even heard of the book until this post. Can you summarize the book for me?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:19 pm

I've not read it myself, which is why I'm asking for people who have. In an essay I've read about it B. J. Mansvelt Beck summarises it incredibly briefly as:

“the world is in a bad state because it does not follow the Heavenly Teacher’s instructions, those that lead to an era of perfect justice and harmony, the era of Great Peace.”


However I'm not yet in a position to judge if that is a fair summary or not!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 01, 2020 6:41 am

Reading Yuan Shu's SGZ, I'm wondering about what date Chen Gui and Yuan Shu's falling out is. The ZZTJ places it before Yuan Shu becomes Emperor (I think for narrative reasons), my reading of the SGZ is that soon after Yuan Shu took Yang back. Would my reading seem right?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri May 01, 2020 7:16 am

RDC places it after Yuan Shu announces himself Emperor, so I guess that makes a strong case that your right?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby MasterG0819 » Sun May 03, 2020 4:02 am

Hi guys I had two questions, one on Zhang He and one on how exactly a part of the 217-219 Hanzhong campaign went. This part of Zhang He’s SGZ is confusion me a bit.

“Liu Bei had over ten thousand elite troops, divided into ten divisions, quickly attacked Zhang He at night. Zhang He lead some personal troops to engage thus preventing Liu Bei. Afterwards, Liu Bei set fire to Zou Ma valley encircling the area. Xiahou Yuan who was putting out the fire confronted Liu Bei and fought a battle. Lacking in troops and continuing on, Xiahou Yuan died.”

So how did the first battle go exactly? Did Zhang He hold off a large force there in a feat that sounds comparable to Zhang Liao at He Fei from this?

Second how did Xiahou Yuan die as this does not seem to line up with the other records I seen which say that Xiahou Yuan led his army to drive Liu Bei out of Mount Dingjun when Huang Zhong attacked him on Fa Zhang’s suggestion.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun May 03, 2020 9:33 am

From To Establish Peace vol 2
The biography of Zhang He refers to two engagements. First, Liu Bei attacked his position at Guangshi by night, with more than ten thousand good soldiers in ten divisions, but he was repulsed by Zhang He's men: this is the engagement recorded in passage F of Jian'an 23. Later, Liu Bei set fire to the headquarters' defences in Running Horse Valley (Zouma gu). Xiahou Yuan fought the fire but then encountered Liu Bei's forces on this separate front. Xiahou Yuan's men were outnumbered in the engagement and so he was defeated and killed. Leaving aside preliminary probing and skirmishing, the general pattern of the decisive engagement is clear. Liu Bei had set up a position on Dingjun Mountain, high ground south of the upper Mian River. Xiahou Yuan was in Running Horse Valley below him, with Zhang He commanding a separate troop on the east about Guangshi. Liu Bei launched a major attack on Zhang He, and he also set fire to the defensive abatis of Xiahou Yuan's encampment. Xiahou Yuan had his men fight the fire, but detached some of his command to assist Zhang He. And at this point Fa Zheng saw the opportunity and Huang Zhong seized it, charging from above onto Xiahou Yuan's depleted troop.


Xiahou Yuan's SGZ offers no specifics for his death, only that he died in battle.
Twenty-fourth year [219] first moon, Bèi in the night set fire to the camp barricades. Yuān sent Zhāng Hé to defend the eastern side, and personally led light troops to defend the southern side. Bèi advanced and battled Hé, and Hé’s army was unsuccessful. Yuān divided his troops and sent half to assist Hé, but was attacked by Bèi. Yuān therefore died in battle. His posthumous title was Mǐn-hóu “Martyred Marquis.”


Xiahou Rong's subbio also doesn't give much information
Róng, appellation Yòuquán. From a young age he was intelligent, and aged seven years could write prose, and read aloud books with several thousand words every day, and all that he saw he memorized. Wén-dì heard of this and invited him. Out of over a hundred guests, each presented a [name] card, each written with their home town, name, and clan. At the time this was what was called the noble card. The guests showed these, and with one glance he could converse with them, never mixing up a single person. The Emperor was deeply impressed with him. At the defeat at Hànzhōng, Róng was aged thirteen years. His attendants tried to carry him away, but he would not agree, saying: “My father is in danger, how can I flee from death!” Therefore he wielded sword and fought, and so died in battle.


Huang Zhong's however gives a better picture
Jiàn’ān twenty-fourth year [219] he was at Hànzhōng at Dìngjūn mountain attacking Xiàhóu Yuān. Yuān’s army was very elite, but Zhōng pushed the vanguard forward and forced the advance, urging on the soldiers, the drums shook the heavens and the shouts moved the valley. In one battle they beheaded Yuān, and Yuān’s army was greatly defeated. He was promoted to General Attacking the West.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby MasterG0819 » Sun May 03, 2020 9:50 am

Thanks DaoLunOfShiji.
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