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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:49 am
by Sun Fin
While reading Michaud's thesis on the Yellow Turbans he notes that this saying was in circulation: “Blue Heaven was dead and the yellow heaven was ascending.” He quotes this directly from the Han Hou Shu. I had the saying written down as saying that the "Green Heaven was dead." I don't have the source for that though. However my understanding is that the Later Han's reign cycle was red? Previously I had presumed that the Yellow Turbans had got the reign element wrong when they began circulating their propaganda, but not I'm wondering if its not just ambiguous in the text? Anyone able to clear that up for me?

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:44 pm
by Tarrot
Blue/Green: This could be because of certain words in Chinese. Guan Yu's blade, for example, has always had ambiguity about it's color because the color could mean Blue or Green, so someone might've translated it wrong. Rafe has the quote as Blue as well, and it makes sense when you consider the Wuxing (see the bottom of my post).

Wuxing: This is the Chinese 5 elemental system. In order, it should be Fire (Red) -> Earth (Yellow) -> Metal (White/Purple) -> Water (Blue) -> Wood (Green) -> Fire and so on. So, Red should be supplanted by Yellow, and the later-Han dynasty ought to have been red.

Looking up, here's what I found on Quora, which might explain the confusion:

"The idea that dynasties have an element associated is not from Qin, but rather the School of Naturalists. That being said, the Han Dynasty took no less than three elements because of its attitude towards the Qin Dynasty and succession.

In the beginning, Liu Bang believed that the Han Dynasty’s element should be water, and he worshiped the Black Emperor, the ancient mythological ruler of the North, which is aligned with the element of Water. Later, Emperor Wu changed the Dynasty’s element to Earth, because he accepted that the Qin Dynasty was a legitimate dynasty, and thus his dynasty must be that of Earth, to overcome water.

When Wang Mang took over later, he took the view advocated by Liu Xiang, and not only changed the succession from the overcoming pattern to the begetting pattern, but also the elements of the previous dynasties. Thus, the Yellow Emperor, who was always cardinally Earth (Yellow = center = earth), remained, but Xia became Metal, Shang Water, Zhou Wood, and thus the Han Dynasty became Fire (again negating the legitimacy of the Qin Dynasty). After he was toppled, Eastern Han’s Liu Xiu affirmed the Han Dynasty as Fire, and continued the begetting cycle until the Jurchen Jin Dynasty.

Han Fire -> Cao Wei Earth -> Jin Metal -> Northern Wei Water -> Northern Zhou Wood -> Sui Fire -> Tang Earth -> Later Liang Metal -> Later Han Water -> Later Zhou Wood -> Song Fire.

At first, the Jin Dynasty believed itself to be Earth, following that of Song’s, but then it decided that to coincide with its name, which is Metal, they will acknowledge their puppet state of Qi, ruled by Liu Yu, as Earth, so that then they can sack him and succeed as Metal."

So they were initially Water under Liu Bang, but then Emperor Wu/Liu Che changed it to Metal recognizing the legitimacy of the Qin dynasty, but Wang Man in his brief tenure as Emperor redid the organization to make sure the Yellow Emperor was Yellow (Earth), and in this instance the Han was Fire, which Liu Xiu reaffirmed when he took power back.

So, to answer your question, the Han was Red. Everyone was Yellow to gain legitimacy to overthrow Red.

Now, what this may be referring to, is beyond dynastic cycles, the 5 Wuxing elements all interact with each other. Using Earth for example, it's created by Fire, creates Metal, destroys Water, and insults (and is destroyed by) Wood. The Blue Heaven may, in this instance, be related to an event or eclipse or some sort of omen that would fortell Yellow destroying it and rising up to be the next chapter in the cycle. Rafe also confirms that it was the Blue Sky of the Han, so it may not have been about the Dynasty, but rather due to Yellow being strong against Blue.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:36 pm
by Sun Fin
Thank you Tarrot, that was a fabulous explanation!

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:52 pm
by Sun Fin
When He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan to deal with the eunuchs does anyone know why Gongsun Zan (or Liu Yu) wasn't also included? They also had an experienced frontier army at their command.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:46 pm
by Dong Zhou
Sun Fin wrote:When He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan to deal with the eunuchs does anyone know why Gongsun Zan (or Liu Yu) wasn't also included? They also had an experienced frontier army at their command.


My guess is distance and that the army there was still needed in case things deteriorated again with the Wuhuan whereas Huangfu Song was still in position to protect from any attack from Liang so Dong Zhuo could be spared.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:14 pm
by Tarrot
From Rafe's translation of the ZZTJ, Lu Fan was named Administrator of Pengze in 209. Where is Pengze? Jing was for the most part stable outside Jiangxia being split between Cao Cao/Sun Quan. Lu Fan's bio is completely gone, and Rafe's Tome doesn't list his appointment, only that he served in Poyang from about 208 till 223. Anyone know about this?

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:38 am
by DaoLunOfShiji
Pengze 彭澤 was located in Yuzhang 豫章郡, in Yangzhou 揚州
Lu Fan's SGZ is here https://threestatesrecords.com/2017/11/05/56-3-lu-fan/

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:27 pm
by Tarrot
Ok, then that is weird. I'm going to assume Lu Fan was named Administrator of Yuzhang since this matches with Sun Ben being promoted to general in 208. Yuzhang was already split into Yuzhang and Luling in 200, so it seems odd to create an administrator of a portion of a commandery.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:38 pm
by Fornadan
It says he was the acting warden of Pengze, and even lists the three counties he was responsible for. So it seems more likely to me that Pengze was briefly a separate commandery which was later discontinued.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:47 am
by Dong Zhou
What do people think of Xu You nowadays?

I remember back way back when, he was seen as smart, his defection key for Guandu but the circumstances of his defection put a cloud over him. Do people still feel that way?