Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:57 am

Just to expand on Forndan's post, Prof De Crespigny wrote in Generals of the South:

According to Wu shu, the official history of the state founded by his son Sun Quan, the family had a lineage over six hundred years old, traced back to the celebrated general Sun Wu... It is possible that the Sun family of Fuchun were descended from the legendary Sun Wu, but after so many centuries there can have been limited relevance or value to the claim.


It seems to me deeply unlikely that they were actually related, otherwise Sun Jian or Ce would have mentioned it. Instead Quan only seemed to have dreamed it up when legitimising himself as Emperor. However it was a claim made in the 3K era itself.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby MasterG0819 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:55 am

I see. Thanks guys.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:54 am

MasterG0819 wrote:Not sure if this had been asked?


Just to say, I wouldn't worry too much about if asked before. Topic been around since 2003 with over a thousand pages, most things have probably been asked but would be difficult to find. Better just to ask the question, people will be happy to answer
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 pm

Reading Taishi Ci's awesome translation of Sun Ce's SGZ raised a question for me. Two men were described as significant advisers for Sun Ce, yet I'd never heard of them before. Sun Ce is my specialist subject so this surprised me - and if I'm honest upset me slightly. :lol: I also can't find any reference to them in GoTS. Does anyone know anything about Chen Duan or Qin Song?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:58 pm

Qin Song is a name I came across years ago when researching officers for ROTK XI--but it seems tricky to find out too much about him.
He supposedly appears alongside Zhang Zhao as one of the officers suggesting to join Cao Cao at Red Cliff that Sun Quan was disappointed in. The lack of info makes me wonder if he angered the wrong person as apparently happened to Sun Shao (the first Wu Prime Minister).

Qin Song is actually in ROTK 14 but his bio only contains what I'd already read--joined Sun Ce with Chen Duan (who oddly is not in the game despite being mentioned there).

Fun fact; he was apparently in John Woo's Red Cliff film.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:41 am

Sun Fin wrote:Reading Taishi Ci's awesome translation of Sun Ce's SGZ raised a question for me. Two men were described as significant advisers for Sun Ce, yet I'd never heard of them before. Sun Ce is my specialist subject so this surprised me - and if I'm honest upset me slightly. :lol: I also can't find any reference to them in GoTS. Does anyone know anything about Chen Duan or Qin Song?


De Crespigny's encyclopaedia doesn't have much of Chen Duan (style, from Guangling, adviser to Sun Ce, died around 200). Qin Song describes him as of conservative bent, initially doubted Sun Quan could keep Wu independent after Ce's death but continued to serve, backed surrender at Chibi, died soon after.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Why are there so many errors in recorded Chinese history? Even on issues like eclipses and simple transcription errors where dates dont add up or names are incorrectly wrote down for someone else? I could understand issues here and there - but it often seems to be quite literally littered in these simple errors.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tarrot » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:38 pm

Well, it was a lot harder to proof-read back then, plus often times the histories are pulling from numerous anecdotal sources. People misremember things all the time, when and how it happened, and often things that others will see as contradictory don't seem as such when putting it together. Plus, China is a really huge place, so things like dialects and the words people used and how they wrote things would vary from place to place. Like, in the Three Kingdoms era, there was a shift in calligraphy and how to write Chinese words (to the traditional characters used today), so that transition was another issue with a lot of recordings.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:48 am

Thanks DZ and Grey Riders. :)

Taishi Ci found this information for me:

There is a note stuck to the end of Zhang Hong's bio.
初,紘同郡秦松字文表,陳端字子正,並與紘見待於孫策,參與謀謨。各早卒。Qin Song, styled Wenbiao, and Chen Duan, styled Zizheng, were also from the same commandary as Zhang Hong (ie, Guangling), and they came to serve Sun Ce along with Zhang Hong and advised him on plans and strategies. Both of them died young.
Zhou Yu's bio (from Jiangbiaozhuan): 權召群臣會議,張昭、秦松等猶豫不能決,"[Cao Cao had sent Zhou Yu a letter ordering him to send hostages to the Han court.] Sun Quan summoned his ministers to discuss the issue. Zhang Zhao, Qin Song, and others could not come to a decision."
*sent Sun Quan a letter
Later in that bio: 劉備之自京還也,權乘飛雲大船,與張昭、秦松、魯肅等十餘人共追送之,大宴會敘別。昭、肅等先出,權獨與備留語,"When Liu Bei was returning from the capital (I assume Jianye), Sun Quan rode a large, swift boat to escort him, and about a dozen of Sun Quan's ministers accompanied them, including Zhang Zhao, Qin Song, and Lu Su. They held a great farewell banquet. Then Zhang Zhao, Lu Su, and the others left, leaving Sun Quan behind with Liu Bei."
Lu Ji's bio: 孫策在吳,張昭、張紘、秦松為上賓,共論四海未泰,須當用武治而平之,"At this time, Sun Ce was in the Wu region. Zhang Zhao, Zhang Hong, and Qin Song were his chief retainers. They were discussing how, since the realm within the Four Seas was not yet at peace, military force would be needed to govern and pacify it."


And DaoLun this from the ZZTJ:

Sun Ce made Zhang Hong Colonel of Upright Counsel and Zhang Zhao of Pengcheng was Chief Clerk. One of these two would remain at base while the other accompanied the army on campaign. Qin Song, Chen Duan and other men of Guangling took part in planning.


They really do seem to have been significant figures in the Sun Ce regime that we know very little about.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby MasterG0819 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:54 pm

Any idea where Yu Jin was from 209-219? Reading his SGZ and not seeing him in anyone else’s during this time he seems to had suddenly gone from being one of Cao Cao’s most used generals to doing nothing until Fan.
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