Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:06 pm

That one does have the annotations, however it did the old translation sin of not separating them from the Prime text. So it looks like one big bio.
"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
— Zhong Hui
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby alex33 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:15 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:That one does have the annotations, however it did the old translation sin of not separating them from the Prime text. So it looks like one big bio.



Hmmm there has to be something missing then Taishi Ci 2.0 answer quotes a rather larger bit from the annotations that is missing from the Kongming.net bio sadly. So I was thinking that maybe all the annotations are missing (as it is sometimes with some older translation on this site)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:23 pm

There are likely things missing. It happened all too often back then. Large memorials would be omitted or even very important lines. There was a translation of Sun Quan's SGZ that left out the slaughter of Xiakou, which you'd think would be something you would want to translate. So it wouldn't be hard for me to believe that someone just didn't pay full attention to Zhuge Zhan's bio considering he was good at nothing more than calligraphy.
"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
— Zhong Hui
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:38 am

That's the usual answer: either they're incomplete or they haven't been done.

Zhuge Zhan's SGZ is short, though, and goes together with Fan Jian's entry. So here they are:

瞻字思遠。建興十二年,亮出武功,與瑾書曰:「瞻今已八歲,聰慧可愛,嫌其早成,恐不為重器耳。」年十七,尚公主,拜騎都尉。其明年為羽林中郎將,屢遷射聲校尉、侍中、尚書僕射,加軍師將軍。瞻工書畫,強識念,蜀人追思亮,咸愛其才敏。每朝廷有一善政佳事,雖非瞻所建倡,百姓皆傳相告曰:「葛侯之所為也。」是以美聲溢譽,有過其實。景耀四年,為行都護衛將軍,與輔國大將軍南鄉侯董厥并平尚書事。六年冬,魏征西將軍鄧艾伐蜀,自陰平由景谷道旁入。瞻督諸軍至涪停住,前鋒破,退還,住綿竹。艾遣書誘瞻曰:「若降者,必表為琅邪王。」瞻怒,斬艾使。遂戰,大敗,臨陣死,時年三十七。眾皆離散,艾長驅至成都。瞻長子尚,與瞻俱沒。次子京及攀子顯等,咸熙元年內移河東。(SGZ)

Zhuge Zhan was styled Siyuan. In the twelfth year of Jianxing (234), while Zhuge Liang was camped at Wugong during his northern campaign, he wrote a letter to his brother Zhuge Jin stating, “Zhan has already turned seven by now. He has admirable intellect and a nimble mind. Still, I worry whether such early development might mean he does not reach his full potential.”

When Zhuge Zhan was sixteen, he married a royal princess and was appointed as a Cavalry Commandant. The following year, he was appointed as General of the Household Gentlemen of the Feathered Forest. He subsequently became Colonel of Archers Who Shoot at a Sound, a Palace Attendant, Supervisor of the Masters of Writing, and Directing-Instructor of the Army.

Zhuge Zhan was skilled at both calligraphy and painting, and he had a powerful memory. The people of Shu, who all thought fondly of Zhuge Liang, loved Zhuge Zhan for his talent and his cunning. Whenever a good policy was passed in court or something excellent happened, even if Zhuge Zhan had not been its advocate, the common people would always tell one another, “It’s all thanks to Marquis Zhuge.” Thus his reputation was so great that it surpassed his true worth.

In the fourth year of Jingyan (261), Zhuge Zhan was appointed as acting Protector-Guard General, and he supervised the affairs of the Masters of Writing, together with the Grand General Who Upholds The State and Marquis of Nanxiang, Dong Jue.

In the sixth year (263), in winter, Wei’s General Who Conquers The West, Deng Ai, campaigned against the Shu region. He marched from Yinping to approach the Shu interior from the side, by way of the road through Jing Valley. Zhuge Zhan led the armies to halt Deng Ai’s invasion at Fu. But his vanguard was routed, and he fell back until he reached Mianzhu.

Deng Ai sent a letter to entice Zhuge Zhan to defect to Wei, stating, “If you surrender, I will petition to have you appointed as Prince of Langye (ancestral home of the Zhuge clan).” But Zhuge Zhan was enraged by this offer, and he beheaded Deng Ai’s messenger.

The two armies then fought at Mianzhu. Zhuge Zhan was greatly defeated, and he died during the battle; he was thirty-six years old. His soldiers all scattered and fled, thus Deng Ai was able to press on to Chengdu.

Zhuge Zhan’s eldest son was Zhuge Shang; he was lost in battle together with his father. Zhuge Zhan's second son Zhuge Jing, Zhuge Pan's son Zhuge Xian (Zhuge Liang's great-grandson by way of Zhuge Qiao), and others were relocated to the interior of Wei, in Hedong commandary, in the first year of Xianxi (264).

〈干寶曰:瞻雖智不足以扶危,勇不足以拒敵,而能外不負國,內不改父之志,忠孝存焉。《華陽國志》曰:尚嘆曰:「父子荷國重恩,不早斬黃皓,以致傾敗,用生何為!」乃馳赴魏軍而死。〉〈案《諸葛氏譜》云:京字行宗。《晉泰始起居注》載詔曰:「諸葛亮在蜀,盡其心力,其子瞻臨難而死義,天下之善一也。」其孫京,隨才署吏,後為郿令。尚書僕射山濤《啟事》曰:「郿令諸葛京,祖父亮,遇漢亂分隔,父子在蜀,雖不達天命,要為盡心所事。京治郿自復有稱,臣以為宜以補東宮舍人,以明事人之理,副梁、益之論。」京位至江州刺史。〉(Pei Songzhi)

(The Eastern Jin historian Gan Bao wrote, “It is true that in the end, Zhuge Zhan was not clever enough to save his state from destruction or bold enough to resist the enemy advance. Still, he never abandoned his state, and he never turned his back on his father’s ambition (to revive the Han). He was a loyal and filial man.”

The Huayang Guozhi writes of Zhuge Shang’s death that, “Zhuge Shang lamented, ‘My father and I enjoyed the great favor of the state, yet we did not get rid of Huang Hao at once, thus the state has come to ruin. What use is there in living?’ And he rushed into the Wei army and fell in battle.”

According to the Registry of the Zhuge clan, this Zhuge Jing had the style name Xingzong. The Daily Affairs of the Taishi Era (of the Jin dynasty) contains this edict from Emperor Wu of Jin (Sima Yan): "When Zhuge Liang served Shu, he exhausted all his heart and all his strength on their behalf. His son Zhuge Zhan confronted hardships and died a righteous death. Goodness is the same all throughout the realm." Since Zhuge Jing was Zhuge Liang's grandson, he was evaluated for his talents and granted office.

Zhuge Jing later became Prefect of Mei county (near Chang'an). The Supervisor of the Masters of Writing, Shan Tao, granted him a recommendation: "I note the Prefect of Mei, Zhuge Jing, whose grandfather was Zhuge Liang. During the chaos and division at the end of the Han dynasty, Zhuge Liang and his son served Shu. Although by doing so they failed to recognize the will of the Mandate of Heaven, still they served their state with absolute devotion. As for Zhuge Jing himself, he has done a commendable job in his administration of Mei. I believe that he should be chosen to serve as a retainer of the Eastern Palace (the Crown Prince's residence), both as a clear example of reward for good service and in order to appease the people of Lianzhou and Yizhou (the former territory of Shu-Han)."

Zhuge Jing eventually rose in office as high as Inspector of Jiangzhou (in the southeast).)


董厥者,丞相亮時為府令史,亮稱之曰:「董令史,良士也。吾每與之言,思慎宜適。」徙為主薄。亮卒後,稍遷至尚書仆射,代陳祗為尚書令,遷大將軍,平台事,而義陽樊建代焉。延熙(二)十四年,以校尉使吳,值孫權病篤,不自見建。權問諸葛恪曰:「樊建何如宗預也?」恪對曰:「才識不及預,而雅性過之。」後為侍中,守中書令。自瞻、厥、建統事,姜維常徵伐在外,宦人黃皓竊弄機柄,咸共將護,無能匡矯,然建特不與皓好往來。蜀破之明年春,厥、建俱詣京都,同為相國參軍,其秋并兼散騎常侍,使蜀使慰勞。(SGZ)

As for Dong Jue, during Zhuge Liang’s era he had served as a clerk on Zhuge Liang’s staff. Zhuge Liang had praised him, saying, “Clerk Dong is a fine man. Whenever I speak with him, his thinking has always been suitable and cautious.” And he eventually appointed Dong Jue as a Registrar.

After Zhuge Liang’s death, Dong Jue was reassigned as Supervisor of the Masters of Writing. He replaced Chen Zhi as Prefect of the Masters of Writing, then was transferred to be Grand General, where he settled the affairs of state.

Dong Jue was succeeded by Fan Jian of Yiyang commandary. In the fourteenth year of Yanxi (251), Fan Jian was appointed as a Colonel and sent as an envoy to Wu; however, Sun Quan happened to be too bedridden by illness to receive him, so Fan Jian never met him in person. But Sun Quan did ask Zhuge Ke, “How does Fan Jian compare to (Han’s previous diplomat to Wu) Zong Yu?”

Zhuge Ke replied, “When it comes to talents or knowledge, he is not as good as Zong Yu. But his refinement and nature surpass Zong Yu.”

Fan Jian was later appointed as a Palace Attendant and as acting Prefect of the Palace Secretariat.

All through the administrations of Zhuge Zhan, Dong Jue, and Fan Jian, Jiang Wei was often away on military campaigns, while the eunuch Huang Hao was secretly grasping after power and authority. These three all worked together to protect one another, but they could not rectify the state. Yet Fan Jian at least never had any dealings with Huang Hao.

The spring after the conquest of Shu (in 264), Dong Jue and Fan Jian went to the Wei capital at Luoyang. In order to reassure the natives of the conquered Shu region and recognize their achievements, Dong Jue and Fan Jian were both appointed as Army Advisors to the Chancellor of State (Sima Zhao), and that autumn, both of them were appointed as Cavaliers In Regular Attendance.

〈案《晉百官表》:董厥字龔襲,亦義陽人。建字長元。〉〈孫盛《異同記》曰:瞻、厥等以維好戰無功,國內疲弊,宜表後主,召還為益州刺史,奪其兵權;蜀長老猶有瞻表以閻宇代維故事。晉永和三年,蜀史常璩說蜀長老云:「陳壽嘗為瞻吏,為瞻所辱,故因此事歸惡黃皓,而云瞻不能匡矯也。」〉〈《漢晉春秋》曰:樊建為給事中,晉武帝問諸葛亮之治國,建對曰:「聞惡必改,而不矜過,賞罰之信,足感神明。」帝曰:「善哉!使我得此人以自輔,豈有今日之勞乎!」建稽首曰:「臣竊聞天下之論,皆謂鄧艾見枉,陛下知而不理,此豈馮唐之所謂『雖得頗、牧而不能用』者乎!」帝笑曰:「吾方欲明之,卿言起我意。」於是發詔治艾焉。〉(Pei Songzhi)

(According to the Petitions of the Hundred Officials of Jin, Dong Jue was styled Gongxi; like Fan Jian, he was a native of Yiyang commandary. And Fan Jian was styled Changyuan.

The Eastern Jin historian Sun Sheng’s text Records of Textual Comparisons states, “Zhuge Zhan, Dong Jue, and the others felt that Jiang Wei was too militaristic and had achieved nothing, while the state was suffering from the strain. So they petitioned the Later Lord (Liu Shan), asking him to recall Jiang Wei and appoint him as Inspector of Yizhou, which would deprive him of his military authority. When I met with the elders of the Shu region (in 347), they still had a copy of Zhuge Zhan’s petition to this effect, which requested that Yan Yu be appointed as Jiang Wei’s replacement. And in Jin’s third year of Yonghe (347), the historian from the Shu region, Chang Qu (author of the Huayang Guozhi), recorded this claim from the Shu elders: ‘Chen Shou (author of the Records of the Three Kingdoms) had once served as an official working under Zhuge Zhan, and was shamed by Zhuge Zhan. This was why, when writing these biographies, although he attributed the chief evil of the state to Huang Hao, he also blamed Zhuge Zhan by saying he “could not rectify the state”.’”

Xi Zuochi’s Annals of Han and Jin states, “Fan Jian was appointed as an Attendant Officer of the Palace in the Jin court.

“When Emperor Wu of Jin (Sima Yan) asked Fan Jian about the ways in which Zhuge Liang had governed his state, Fan Jian replied, ‘When he heard of wrongdoing, he always put a stop to it. Yet he never became arrogant or overbearing. He was clear and consistent in his granting of rewards and infliction of punishments. Truly, I feel he had a sagacious mind.’

“’Amazing!’ exclaimed Emperor Wu. ‘Ah, if only we had had Zhuge Liang to govern our own state! Then how would we ever have had to deal with all these troubles?’

“Fan Jian kowtowed before replying, ‘If I may be so bold, I have heard people talking about how Deng Ai was treated unfairly. Your Majesty is aware that this is true. Yet you have not rectified the situation. Isn’t this the same situation as when Feng Tang told Emperor Wen of Han, “Even if you had Lian Po and Li Mu for yourself, you wouldn’t be able to use them”?’

“Emperor Wu laughed and said, ‘I was just about to clear up that matter. Sir, you’ve brought up precisely what I was thinking.’ And he issued an edict exonerating Deng Ai.”)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:57 am

Thanks Jordan Taishi Ci, that has helped me understand Zhuge Zhan and co better, in a more positive light

Don't know why I keep mixing the two of you up, my apologies :oops:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:36 pm

I had nothing to do with that post...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Oh stop being modest. ;)
"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
— Zhong Hui
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:58 am

Jordan wrote:I had nothing to do with that post...


Second time I have done that, not sure why I keep making that mistake. I see the name, I see the avatar yet I put the wrong name. It isn't acceptable and I'm sorry, I'll try to prevent it happening again and for now can only apologize
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby alex33 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:06 pm

Thank you Taishi Ci! I think this excellent translation should be added to kongming.net

I have another question, I could have sworn I‘ve read about a General or Military Officer who mingled with the common troops and even helped them build fortifications, he was ridiculed for that by is colleagues but I can‘t remember who this person was. I could‘ve sworn he was someone from Wei. Does anybody know who this person is?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 am

alex33 wrote:I have another question, I could have sworn I‘ve read about a General or Military Officer who mingled with the common troops and even helped them build fortifications, he was ridiculed for that by is colleagues but I can‘t remember who this person was. I could‘ve sworn he was someone from Wei. Does anybody know who this person is?


Can't think of it, would be surprised as likes of Huangfu Song was admired for mucking in with the troops and could be seen as a good leadership
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