Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:12 pm

Does someone know which powers the Minister over the Masses had during the Han dynasty?
Thanks :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:20 pm

Excellency over the Masses (situ) 司徒 was formally in charge of civil affairs. In 1 BC the position of
Assisting Chancellor was replaced by Chief Excellency over the Masses 大 司 徒 . In 51 the prefix
“Chief” was removed.19 In 208 the position was replaced by Assisting Chancellor. In 220, the position
was restored by Wei.
https://threestatesrecords.files.wordpr ... fices1.pdf
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:49 pm

Thank you for the documentation and the answer :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby alex33 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:23 pm

Hello Folks!

It is mentioned on Zhuge Zhans son Zhuge Jings page and on Wikipedia that he served Jin in his later life. Can anyone point me to the source for that information? I‘ve read Zhuge Zhans Records Bio but it only mentiones „ His second son Zhuge Jing, along with Zhuge Pan’s son Zhuge Xian, were moved inland to Hedong in the year of Xianxi [264].“ Wikipedia ads this bit after this sentence „and came to serve the Jin dynasty later.“ his page here says „ Zhuge Zhan’s second son. Served Jin following the collapse of Shu.“ but I can not find any source for this claim. I tried to find something in Rafe de Crespignys dictionary but there isn‘t even an entry on Zhuge Zhan weirdly. Can someone help me with this?

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:56 am

de Crespigny wouldn't have included anything about Zhuge Zhan since his book only covers people up until 220.

The information about Zhuge Liang's grandson 諸葛京 Zhuge Jing (not to be confused with Zhuge Dan's son 諸葛靚 Zhuge Jing) comes from the end of Zhuge Zhan's entry in the Records of the Three Kingdoms and additional notes added by Pei Songzhi.

次子京及攀子顯等,咸熙元年內移河東。(SGZ)

Zhuge Zhan's second son Zhuge Jing, Zhuge Pan's son Zhuge Xian (Zhuge Liang's great-grandson by way of Zhuge Qiao), and others were relocated to the interior of Wei, in Hedong commandary, in the first year of Xianxi (264).

〈案《諸葛氏譜》云:京字行宗。《晉泰始起居注》載詔曰:「諸葛亮在蜀,盡其心力,其子瞻臨難而死義,天下之善一也。」其孫京,隨才署吏,後為郿令。尚書僕射山濤《啟事》曰:「郿令諸葛京,祖父亮,遇漢亂分隔,父子在蜀,雖不達天命,要為盡心所事。京治郿自復有稱,臣以為宜以補東宮舍人,以明事人之理,副梁、益之論。」京位至江州刺史。(Pei Songzhi)

According to the Registry of the Zhuge clan, this Zhuge Jing had the style name Xingzong. The Daily Affairs of the Taishi Era (of the Jin dynasty) contains this edict from Emperor Wu of Jin (Sima Yan): "When Zhuge Liang served Shu, he exhausted all his heart and all his strength on their behalf. His son Zhuge Zhan confronted hardships and died a righteous death. Goodness is the same all throughout the realm." Since Zhuge Jing was Zhuge Liang's grandson, he was evaluated for his talents and granted office.

Zhuge Jing later became Prefect of Mei county. The Supervisor of the Masters of Writing, Shan Tao, granted him a recommendation: "I note the Prefect of Mei, Zhuge Jing, whose grandfather was Zhuge Liang. During the chaos and division at the end of the Han dynasty, Zhuge Liang and his son served Shu. Although by doing so they failed to recognize the will of the Mandate of Heaven, still they served their state with absolute devotion. As for Zhuge Jing himself, he has done a commendable job in his administration of Mei. I believe that he should be chosen to serve as a retainer of the Eastern Palace (the Crown Prince's residence), both as a clear example of reward for good service and in order to appease the people of Lianzhou and Yizhou (the former territory of Shu-Han)."

Zhuge Jing eventually rose in office as high as Inspector of Jiangzhou (in the southeast).
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby alex33 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:04 am

Awesome thank you very much!! Is there any place where I can read the Records Bio of Zhuge Zhan with the annotations? The Translation here sadly does not include them and the Three States Records Shu page sadly lacks the entry at all.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:30 am

alex33 wrote:Awesome thank you very much!! Is there any place where I can read the Records Bio of Zhuge Zhan with the annotations? The Translation here sadly does not include them and the Three States Records Shu page sadly lacks the entry at all.

This isn't the SGZ with annotations, but it's a nice analyzation of Zhuge Zhan. Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but maybe it has some info you didn't know in there before!

https://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/107904342172
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:10 am

"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
— Zhong Hui
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby alex33 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:47 am

Thank you very much! I already read both the Bio on Kongming.net (which sadly lacks the annotations) and this exact tumblr thread hahaha. I would really like to read his bio with the annotations but i can‘t find a translated version sadly.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:56 am

If it's not here and not on the Three Kingdom's site then it probably hasn't been translated yet, sadly.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
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