Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:17 pm

Is it true that Sima Yi was the one that advised Cao Cao to not move the capital and instead ally with Wu to perform a pincer attack on Guan Yu?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:48 pm

Partly, yes.
It was Jiang Ji and Xuan-di of W. Jin that convinced Wu-di of Wei to not move the Xian-di of Han from Xu to Ye.

The ZZTJ says, drawing from Jiang Ji's SGZ:

Guan Yu's power made central China tremble, and King Cao of WEI even considered shifting the capital from Xu city to avoid his attacks. Sima Yi, however, Major to the Army of the Chancellor, and the Junior Clerk in the Department of the West Jiang Ji both said to him, "Yu Jin and his comrades were destroyed by the floods, they were not lost in war, and there is yet no real harm to the great plans of our state. Liu Bei and Sun Quan may appear to be close allies, but they have private disagreements. Guan Yu has ambitions, and Sun Quan will never allow him to achieve them. "Send a man to encourage Sun Quan to close on his rear, and promise in return to enfeoff him with all land south of the Yangzi. Then the siege of Fan will certainly be broken." Cao Cao accepted this plan.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Gongsun Z. » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:40 pm

Hello respected scholars,

Reading the SGZ for pleasure, I got a middle-hard question I like to share.
I'm rooting for the signification of: 興業 (xingye) in different situations.

In Zhou Yu SGZ, we got an appointment, for his yongest son, Zhou Yin: 興業都尉 (xingye duwei).

And, in the SGZ of Li Yan, we got 興業將軍 (xingye jiangjun), something like General Who Revives the Empire or General Who Revives Glory I guess ??

So, for the appointement of Zhou Yin:

Do you think it might be a place: Xingye (county) Commandant ? [South-Est of Wu Kingdoms]
Or a description of the post like in Li Yan's SGZ ? Something like Commandant Who Revives Glory ?

What do you think of it ?

Edit: I guess you are right, seems like a title to me too. Thanks for the clarification, Fornadan. :wink:
The reading is sometimes hard when you don't have all the background of the time in spirit. You hit the point with 'fluffy', who is the perfect term for the impressive collection of titles and grades (civil and military) in the Three Kingdoms (and even before that). :o
Last edited by Gongsun Z. on Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:05 pm

I don't think 興業 is a place name, in fact the text goes on to say that he was given a thousand troops, and was stationed at Gong'an公安.
So I think 興業都尉 is just a fluffy title for a military officer. (I suppose in this context 興業都尉 could mean something like Chief Commandant of Flourishing Legacy or something like that)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:09 pm

What were relations with other countries like during the three period era? how did other countries view the civil war? Were the 3 states acknowledged as 3 separate countries? I know Shu Han performed trade with India, and that Cao Wei had performed trade with Japan, but i am curious if these are just trades, and the outsiders stayed out of the politics of China, or were there any outside countries who attempted to take advantage of the fractured state? I do recall Korea at one point attempted to invade Wei from the rear, but failed to do so.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Pirao » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:39 pm

greencactaur wrote:What were relations with other countries like during the three period era? how did other countries view the civil war? Were the 3 states acknowledged as 3 separate countries? I know Shu Han performed trade with India, and that Cao Wei had performed trade with Japan, but i am curious if these are just trades, and the outsiders stayed out of the politics of China, or were there any outside countries who attempted to take advantage of the fractured state? I do recall Korea at one point attempted to invade Wei from the rear, but failed to do so.


Petty kingdoms and tribes in souther China and Vietnam paid tribute to Wu and many exotic articles made their way to their capital.

The Xianbei tribes north of China served in Wei's armies many times as mercenaries and auxiliary troops, at other times they raided their territories. Wei also allied with Goguryeo to destroy the Gongsun state in Liadong, afterwards Goguryeo raided them and Wei invaded in response, reducing Goguryeo's territory and influence in the area tremendously, and receiving tribute from other petty kingdoms in Korea. They also attempted to re-establish the Protector General of the Western regions to re-open the silk trade routes and control the small states in that area, but their control over that area never matched that of the Han dynasty.

That's about all I know.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:12 pm

greencactaur wrote:What were relations with other countries like during the three period era? how did other countries view the civil war? Were the 3 states acknowledged as 3 separate countries? I know Shu Han performed trade with India, and that Cao Wei had performed trade with Japan, but i am curious if these are just trades, and the outsiders stayed out of the politics of China, or were there any outside countries who attempted to take advantage of the fractured state? I do recall Korea at one point attempted to invade Wei from the rear, but failed to do so.

Well, the relations were this; often, anybody who was non-Chinese was simply referred to as a "Barbarian" - with the direction before. "West Barbarians," "North Barbarians," and "Southern Barbarians." With this alone, you can get a lot of info as to how the Chinese viewed non-Chinese people and their potential interactions with them. Trading was most certainly a thing - especially during the Han Dynasty with the reopening of the Silk Road. The people of Qin, the dynasty before Han, said this about a tribe of Xianbei, [From The Biography of Fu Jian in the Chronicles of the Book of Jin] "The people of Former Qin called the Xianbei 'bailü (white slaves)."

Clearly, they did not think very highly of non-Chinese people. They certainly attempted to ally with Chinese leaders to defeat other tribes or assist in their own internal affairs, and sometimes certain Chinese leaders would ask (demand) for tribute every so often from them. But they had their fair share of conflicts between them. The Xiongnu tribes especially, they had fought on and off for hundreds of years.

I watched a really interesting documentary exactly on this subject - perhaps it may interest you. It was about the time right when the Silk Road opened up and Chinese began exploring outwards outside of their country and it re-enacts a lot of it - it is truly an interesting watch and makes the man who survived this journey seem extraordinary for the feats he accomplishes (surviving Xiongnu tribe captures twice for several years and the sheer walk across the lands that he did), for those interested; You can watch here.
Last edited by Kongde on Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:13 am

Wow i'm 3 minutes into this documentary, what a beautiful work of art :shock: :shock: :shock: Thanks so much! if you guys got any more interesting documentaries i'd love to see them. It's interesting to see the opinion of foreign nations/races.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:40 am

Kongde wrote:
greencactaur wrote:What were relations with other countries like during the three period era? how did other countries view the civil war? Were the 3 states acknowledged as 3 separate countries? I know Shu Han performed trade with India, and that Cao Wei had performed trade with Japan, but i am curious if these are just trades, and the outsiders stayed out of the politics of China, or were there any outside countries who attempted to take advantage of the fractured state? I do recall Korea at one point attempted to invade Wei from the rear, but failed to do so.

Well, the relations were this; often, anybody who was non-Chinese was simply referred to as a "Barbarian" - with the direction before. "West Barbarians," "North Barbarians," and "Southern Barbarians." With this alone, you can get a lot of info as to how the Chinese viewed non-Chinese people and their potential interactions with them. Trading was most certainly a thing - especially during the Han Dynasty with the reopening of the Silk Road. The people of Qin, the dynasty before Han, said this about a tribe of Xianbei, [From The Biography of Fu Jian in the Chronicles of the Book of Jin] "The people of Former Qin called the Xianbei 'bailü (white slaves)."

Clearly, they did not think very highly of non-Chinese people. They certainly attempted to ally with Chinese leaders to defeat other tribes or assist in their own internal affairs, and sometimes certain Chinese leaders would ask (demand) for tribute every so often from them. But they had their fair share of conflicts between them. The Xiongnu tribes especially, they had fought on and off for hundreds of years.

I watched a really interesting documentary exactly on this subject - perhaps it may interest you. It was about the time right when the Silk Road opened up and Chinese began exploring outwards outside of their country and it re-enacts a lot of it - it is truly an interesting watch and makes the man who survived this journey seem extraordinary for the feats he accomplishes (surviving Xiongnu tribe captures twice for several years and the sheer walk across the lands that he did), for those interested; You can watch here.


Thats one heck of documentary! awesome!
Poor Huo Qubing who died at young age (too young to be on the grave), but his hard work drives those pesky Xiongnu from Han. Eventhough they come back after three kingdom (aka Xianbei) :|

-Edit-
perhaps Huo Qubing was a special person that were dispatched from the Heaven with task to drives Xiongnu and brings peace to the Han. So, when his task is completed, he is 'called' back by the Heaven. :|

Well, its quite surprising for Zhang Qian after being striped off his status into commoner makes his way back to the court to do a diplomatic mission for Han. :o
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Pirao » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:51 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:Well, its quite surprising for Zhang Qian after being striped off his status into commoner makes his way back to the court to do a diplomatic mission for Han. :o


That kind of thing happened all the time to high officials. The famous Han dynasty general Li Guang was demoted to commoner and climbed his way up to general again a couple of times IIRC. Gongsun Ao too.
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