Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:18 pm

You can have as many questions as you like (granted 100 in one post might not make you popular :P) either in clumps of one or spread out, there is no limit

Ummmm... I don't know... the fact that they last the longest? Or that Sun Jian found the Imperial Seal? (I mean, if Yuan Shu can declare himself emperor when Sun Jian gave it to him, why can't the house of Sun did the same?) Can it be counted as claim? :mrgreen:


That doesn't work for China's view of Mandate of Heaven. Winning does. Sun Jian finding it as a subordinate of Yuan Shu then giving it up means they didn't have hold of said seal for more then five minutes makes it very hard to spin that, they also don't want to highlight their connections to Yuan Shu.

Also Yuan Shu failure doesn't help :wink:

On a more serious note, though, was Liu Bei's lineage really that clear? I read somewhere that an important figure (Pei Songzhi maybe? I forget) cannot trace Liu Bei's lineage. When I check he Liu family tree in Wikipedia, it's written "skipped generations" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_e ... ree_(early)#Han_dynasty,_Xin_dynasty_and_Shu_Han), which is kinda doubtful, don't you think?


Records get lost over time, gaps appear unless well maintained but during the time (and in the generations after), there wasn't any suggestion that Liu Bei was fibbing. Wei would have loved to have gone "you know who is lying about being of the Han line? Liu Bei!" and they would have had access to lineage records. Shu was able to provide a lineage and details of it, nobody counter-claimed it then or in the generations to follow.

I have no particular reason to think Liu Bei was fibbing on this.

Can I have another question?

So I found in Wikipedia an interesting fact that Emperor Ling had 3 children: Liu Bian (Emperor Shao), Liu Xie (Emperor Xian), and a princess named Wannian. I tried to look up for some information about this Wannian princess and all information I found was about another Princess Wannian of Jin. So, does anyone here know about some information about this Princess Wannian of Han?


This is what De Crespigny encyclopaedia has Liu, the Lady VIII. Daughter of Emperor Ling, in 180 the Lady was appointed Princess of Wannian in Zuopingyi. -HHS 10B:462.

Unfortunately we often know very very little, not even names, of female family members.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PyroMystic » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:31 am

Dong Zhou wrote:That doesn't work for China's view of Mandate of Heaven. Winning does. Sun Jian finding it as a subordinate of Yuan Shu then giving it up means they didn't have hold of said seal for more then five minutes makes it very hard to spin that, they also don't want to highlight their connections to Yuan Shu.

Also Yuan Shu failure doesn't help :wink:

Records get lost over time, gaps appear unless well maintained but during the time (and in the generations after), there wasn't any suggestion that Liu Bei was fibbing. Wei would have loved to have gone "you know who is lying about being of the Han line? Liu Bei!" and they would have had access to lineage records. Shu was able to provide a lineage and details of it, nobody counter-claimed it then or in the generations to follow.

I have no particular reason to think Liu Bei was fibbing on this.


That's really sucks for Wu then, haha.

And Shu is lucky. Wait, but that means as long as you have a Liu surname, you can declare yourself an Emperor? Then what about Liu Zhang and Liu Biao? They can also claim that they are the descendant of some Han emperor, aren't they?

Also, is there any possibility that even thought Liu Bei is a descendant of some Han emperor, the Mandate of Heaven is not given to Liu Family because, say, the the Liu family has failed to actually be a good emperor? The fact that Emperor Xian abdicated is actually a strong proof of this and I think people should see this. So should not everyone think: "Oh, okay, Liu Bei might be the descendant of some cool Han emperor but it seems the Mandate of Heaven is leaving the Liu family so let us all serve Cao Pi, perhaps he was the one given the mandate"?

Dong Zhou wrote:This is what De Crespigny encyclopaedia has Liu, the Lady VIII. Daughter of Emperor Ling, in 180 the Lady was appointed Princess of Wannian in Zuopingyi. -HHS 10B:462.

Unfortunately we often know very very little, not even names, of female family members.

Thank you so much for the information! Anyway, what does being "appointed" means? Is being appointed means being given the title or given some office/job to do or simply being born? How old is a princess when she was being appointed? I ask this because Liu Xie was born in 181, so if appointed means given the title, then does this means this princess is a lot older than Liu Xie?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:11 am

You've hit on the very crux of the debate there ProMystic. That is exactly the argument that Cao Pi and Wei were putting forward. The Han dynasty had failed and so the mandate had passed on.

As for Liu Biao and Liu Zhang, yes but the timing was important. Liu Bei only declared himself Emperor upon hearing that Liu Xian had been executed (he actually wasn't - just sent into exile but somehow the news changed by the time it reached Shu) meaning there with no longer a Han incumbent upon the throne. Both the other two were dead or defeated by then. If one of them had still been in a position of power then yes, they probably could have done that.

And yes a few times in later history people with incredibly loose connections to the Han and the surname Liu declared they were reviving the Han dynasty and named themselves Emperor.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:15 pm

PyroMystic wrote:And Shu is lucky. Wait, but that means as long as you have a Liu surname, you can declare yourself an Emperor? Then what about Liu Zhang and Liu Biao? They can also claim that they are the descendant of some Han emperor, aren't they?


Notably the only time, while Xian was on throne, there was any real talk of another Liu on throne was during the coalition. Yuan Shao tried to claim Emperor Xian was not the legitimate son of Emperor Ling (which divided the coalition) and have the experienced, popular northern governor Liu Yu become an alternative Emperor. Liu Yu said no and ended up threatening to exile himself.

Liu Biao was known to be ambitious and even took some imperial like status (he had his own orchestrate) but he never made an attempt to enthrone himself. Xian was simply too clearly the legitimate Han ruler as the son of Emperor Ling, nobody could bring up a claim anywhere near that strong (that Xian was under control of others wasn't sufficient ground, Han emperors were often under the control of somebody). Had Liu Biao, for example, made that bid he would have opened himself to all sorts of attacks

Once Emperor Xian abdicated, that opened it up for Liu Bei (and as Sn Fin says, the rumours of Emperor Xian's death didn't hurt any) to make the claim as the last Liu standing.

Thank you so much for the information! Anyway, what does being "appointed" means? Is being appointed means being given the title or given some office/job to do or simply being born? How old is a princess when she was being appointed? I ask this because Liu Xie was born in 181, so if appointed means given the title, then does this means this princess is a lot older than Liu Xie?


Given the rank. No idea, it could be simply when she came of age or could have "ok I have daughter who has survived long enough after birth, give her a rank".
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:28 pm

I know I've read this somewhere on the forum before - but I don't think it went into elaboration as much as I'd like if I recall correctly. I was researching culture of the time and when I very first got into this time period I noticed everyone had long hair put up and beards. I know it is taboo to cut your hair or beard in any way, and usually done as a kind of punishment or shaming thing. So hair is important in these times (correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm not an expert and going off memory) and hair was seen almost as an extension or part of them that should not be removed. I also remember reading that warriors with long or thick beards were seen to be as a person with talent and well respected.

So all of that being said, I realize many drawings that include long bushy beards on these officers, I begin to question. How many Chinese men at that time could grow beards like that (heck, even today!)? Not to say they do not exist, they certainly do, but I do not believe they are not a common thing, but the pictures of the majority of most all important people have these extravagant beards or thick beards. I question how valid this is. From what I recall on what I did read, they probably more so had wisps of hair and it was not thick often if it grew at all for the most part. So do we have any idea what some of the notorious people with beards might have actually looked like, like Guan Yu and Zhang Fei who are both depicted with nice thick, long beards, Guan Yu's being rather long. I do not doubt Guan Yu must have had a beard with all the sources commenting on how he maintained his beard and commented on his beard, but one must wonder how long it really went to, and similar to Zhang Fei, if he even had a beard. To name a few.

I just find this tidbit of culture interesting....and personally, I wouldn't mind bringing it back. (I love long hair, always have. I've always disliked that the culture of today is that if you have long hair as a guy that you are immediately seen as unprofessional or a bum, the exact counter opposite of the culture that existed during this time period)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:00 am

I think this is the thread you are looking for, Kongde! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:10 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I think this is the thread you are looking for, Kongde! :D

This is it! Thanks so much Sun Fin! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby mendedties » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 am

I'm curious how much of Zhuge Liang's writing is extant. Chen Shou apparently compiled an anthology of it; has that survived? If so, are there English translations available?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:29 am

Literally the only thing I know of that fits your criteria is this commentary on the Art of War by him. I don't own it though so I can't vouch for it's quality.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby zirroxas » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:02 am

Sun Fin wrote:Literally the only thing I know of that fits your criteria is this commentary on the Art of War by him. I don't own it though so I can't vouch for it's quality.


From what I can tell this particular work is not actually his historical writings preserved by Chen Shou but a much later Taoist tradition popularly attributed to him. There aren't any direct references back to the SGZ or other historical texts.

Here's another link: http://kongming.net/novel/writings/wotg/
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