Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:18 pm

We dont know why and can only guess.

Feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but my personal opinion is that

1) Liu Bei was simply too busy. He was busy dealing with Liu Feng's, Guan Yu's and Zhang Fei's death, the lost of Jing, the ascension to the throne, his arguments with the gentries against his Wu campaign, the military expedition itself, him choking said military expedition, getting humiliated, barely losing his life, getting sick, renewing the non aggresion pact. Note that not even Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun were given Nobility titles until Liu Shan's ascension.

2) Lack of funding. Please note that even Liu Bei was never given a temple name and their historical documents were in bad shape. Those with posthumous nobility titles, their descendants were usually rewarded with fiefs or domestic/military ranks which all cost money.

Again, all these is complete conjecture so take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:56 pm

The first point is something I have been leaning toward myself, but the second was something I hadn't considered. I had, perhaps incorrectly, assumed that Liu Ba's economic plan after Ba-Shu had been taken from Liu Zhang may have still been keeping Shu on a solid footing after the plundering of Chengdu. However a lack of funds would absolutely make sense.

Another question, is anyone aware of any other historians commenting on Zhuge Liang's second Chu Shi Biao? Pei Songzhi doubts the authenticity as it was not word in the Collected Works of Zhuge Liang, but had any other prominent historians past PSZ comment on it?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:59 am

The plundering of the treasury wouldnt have such a long term effect. I just think Liu Bei wanted to prioritise his limited resources towards his military expeditions in Hanzhong and Jing. Hence the 'lack of funding thingy'. Remember even Zhuge and Zhao were not given nobility titles.

As for the latter, IDK sorry.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kushan Embassador » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:49 pm

Hi and happy new year to everybody! I would like to know if someone has in pdf to share the next two parts article or if knows where it can be downloaded:

Gardiner, Kenneth HJ. “The Kung-Sun Warlords of Liao-Tung (189–238).” Papers on Far Eastern History 5.5 (1972): Parts 1 and 2.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:03 am

I wish I could help you, but that's something I've been looking for myself.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:13 am

After reading Dong Zhou's wonderful analysis of Yuan Shao I have a question for the community.

So, Gongsun Zan sent his cousin Yue south to aid Yuan Shu/Sun Jian fight off one of Yuan Shao's vassals whom was ordered to attack Sun Jian while the latter was fighting Dong Zhou.

My question is how did Gongsun Zan (or any warlord) manage to send an army (even a "small" one like one thousand cavalry) past multiple enemy warlords territories?

I mean Gongsun Yue would have had to march past Yuan Shao, and Cao Cao's territory (I just woke up so perhaps this was when a friendly force was in Yan?) in order to join with Sun Jian/Yuan Shu. How would an army manage to march so far while not being found by hostile forces?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:16 pm

The cheque is in the post :wink:

In this case, Yan was under Liu Dai who was a friend and anything that could be said to be "sending forces to fight Dong Zhuo" probably allowed more leeway then would happen later. Otherwise? It seems more likely to fail then succeed but if the areas are in enough chaos and division, there might be gaps where the local government can't see troops being moved but others may have a better answer.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:10 pm

Did you get a sense that Gongsun Yue was sent to fight against the Zhou clan specifically or that he was sent to fight with Sun Jian against whoever as a sign of solidarity, with the original target in mind actually being Dong Zhuo?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:01 pm

Zan seems to have used "miliatry advisers with troops" as a form of diplomacy and since Liu Yu was allying with Yuan Shu against Zan's advice, Zan probably wanted his cousin there to explain away any "fake news". The idea beyond that was, I suspect, Zan's frontier men could help Yuan Shu's men with training, against rebels and yes maybe play part against Dong Zhuo's men so Zan could get some reflective glory. The clash with the Zhou clan and Yuan Shao would not have been something Zan likely foresaw when sending Yue
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:27 pm

Sending troops over hostile territory probably isnt as difficult as we think.

During Guandu, Liu Bei noticably waltz through Yan and most of Yu to arrive at Runan to conduct operations against Cao Cao. Twice.

Gao Gan attempted to flee to Jing from Bing so he probably thought it was possible to pull off.

Lei Xu, a leader of force of Lujiang number 20k plus travelled to Gongan to submit to Liu Bei although Sun Quan and Cao Cao occupied territory inbetween.

Liu Bei dispatched Ma Liang to entice the local populace of Southern Jing even though Sun Quan occupied most of middle and southern Jing.

Liao Hua successfully fled with his old mother to Liu Bei through hostile territory.

This is an era with no gps after all lol. Maybe some neat disguise and travelling through gaps of defences could do the trick. Who knows.
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