Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tarrot » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:42 pm

One thing is to take a lot of stories like these with a grain of salt. There are a lot of stories out there that get retold for different people, as a way of describing a person's character. So its entirely possible that the story told was not how things actually happened, but people saying oh, this guy was good, this thing happened.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:26 pm

It seems a bit of a trope from what I recall from Rafe's tome as Tarrot mentions, someone gets captured, the hero of the story goes along and via great virtue, gets person (and sometimes others) back free of charge due to how awesome hero is.

It is possible that bandits/local forces looking for local reputation and legitimacy might make such moves for long term goals but I have my suspicions that either this is simply a trope or a fib to cover payments. Funnily enough there are never tales of "and so so went to pay up and got family back" despite this probably happening rather more then virtue rescues...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kongde » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:It seems a bit of a trope from what I recall from Rafe's tome as Tarrot mentions, someone gets captured, the hero of the story goes along and via great virtue, gets person (and sometimes others) back free of charge due to how awesome hero is.

It is possible that bandits/local forces looking for local reputation and legitimacy might make such moves for long term goals but I have my suspicions that either this is simply a trope or a fib to cover payments. Funnily enough there are never tales of "and so so went to pay up and got family back" despite this probably happening rather more then virtue rescues...

How interesting!!! Now i know...!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:50 pm

Is there any reason Liu Biao chose to shelter Liu Bei other then blood relations? Did he have secret desire to fight Cao Cao, but never saw an opportunity too?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby zirroxas » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:08 pm

greencactaur wrote:Is there any reason Liu Biao chose to shelter Liu Bei other then blood relations? Did he have secret desire to fight Cao Cao, but never saw an opportunity too?


Honestly blood relations were probably one of the least important things in consideration. The amount of people who could legitimately claim descendance from the imperial clan at any point was rather large, and the amount of people who illegitimately did it was also probably large enough that the name "Liu" was not valuable on its own.

Liu Biao likely knew that he'd have to fight Cao Cao eventually. Taking in Liu Bei was a good step in preparing for that. Liu Bei was an experienced field commander with a large following and a well known feud with Cao Cao. Stationing him in Nanyang kept him at arms length so he couldn't interfere with Xiangyang politics and made sure that any aggression from Cao Cao would hit him (the outsider) first. Liu Bei couldn't surrender like Zhang Xiu did because there was no more massive Yuan Shao army to force a political compromise over personal animosity. If Cao Cao got his hands on him, he'd kill him, even if just to send a message.
I don't underrate the value of military knowledge, but if men make war in slavish obedience to rules, they will fail. - Ulysses S. Grant
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:46 am

Oh that makes a lot of sense ! ty for the information
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:23 pm

To add to zirroxas excellent answer, there was probably also a PR aspect in the calculations to go with the miliatry. Liu Bei was a popular figure, seen as a hero and Liu Biao, like other warlords, wanted to be seen as a patron of talent. If Liu Biao rejects such a popular figure, there was a danger that this would tarnish Liu Biao's reputation as being unwilling to support great talents, being small minded or fearful of Liu Bei's popularity. This would impact Liu Biao's prestige and ability to recruit
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:30 am

Thanks for the further information dong much obliged. It makes me wonder however how popular/loved was Liu Bei by this point in time? I feel like most of his popularity came, he conquered Yi. I'm sure as a general he was quite renonwn, but in terms of people support what was it like?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:02 pm

greencactaur wrote:Thanks for the further information dong much obliged. It makes me wonder however how popular/loved was Liu Bei by this point in time? I feel like most of his popularity came, he conquered Yi. I'm sure as a general he was quite renonwn, but in terms of people support what was it like?


Enough that it was a factor in other warlords decisions. Cao Cao's camp was first I think to raise that he was a popular figure and this makes him a problem (outside of Liu Bei's lands, Tao Qian and Lu Bu's camp both noted it within Xu). He could draw people to him and it was clearly felt if a faction was seen as mistreating Liu Bei, it would cost support among gentry, beyond that I'm not sure how far the popularity stretched
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:33 pm

Oh I see how interesting. Thanks for the information :)
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