Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:59 pm

greencactaur wrote:Oh that's interesting. Is there a English translation online?


Yun's SGZ, search Yún Biézhuàn
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:30 pm

Thanks! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:45 pm

Do Tian Chou and Tian Kai share the same character for their family name?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:10 pm

It seems as though they do 田疇 is Tian Chou, and 田楷 is Tian Kai.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 am

I don't think there is more than one family name pronounced Tian
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:15 pm

I guess there is no hint in the histories that they are related? Just as they have the same surname and were active in the same area at the same kind of time!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PyroMystic » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:12 pm

Thank you for Dong Zhou and Sun Fin for your help! Greatly appreaciate it!

I also wish to ask some more question:
So I recently get an interesting information from a Dynasty Warriors, which is a very unreliable source, saying that when Sun Jian is young, he defeated a Taoist rebel named Xu Chang. I checked Sun Jian's SGZ and it writes:
The heretic rebel Xu Chang rose at Juzhang and named himself Emperor Yangming. With his son Xu Shao he stirred up various prefectures, and his followers numbered in the tens of thousands. Sun Jian, as the Major of the commandery, recruited the elite and the brave, totalling more than a thousand men and defeated Xu Chang by coalition with the various prefectures of the province. That year was the first year of Xiping.

(*GASP!* ANOTHER PERSON CLAIMING TO BE AN EMPEROR!)
So my question is that is this Xu Chang a Taoist or not? And if anyone read SGZ in chinese, what is the word used for "Heretic" here? Does it refer to someone like Zhang Jiao?

I also would like to know your opinion on Cao Pi overthrowing the emperor. I think what Cao Pi did is right. Incompetent ruler ought to be replaced with a more competent one, and it seems Cao Pi was quite competent. Some said that he's ruthless, but if he, as Cao Xiu's SGZ states, "When Cao Xiu was about to leave, the emperor went to see him off personally with an escort of chariots, and alighted from his carriage to hold Cao Xiu’s hands in farewell" then I think he's quite a good guy. I don't get why both Shu and Wu hated that and now they're declaring themselves emperor. Didn't that just prove that they are, you know, hypocrite? Besides, I think Cao Pi is the best out of the three. Of course, Cao Cao is better but he's never an emperor.
So I think what I want to know is that do you think Cao Pi is wrong for usurping the throne?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:00 pm

In Generals of the South Prof Rafe says the Chinese word used to describe Xu Chang is: yaoze. I don't know what connatations that word brings but he also says:

Sun Jian's appointment as a junior officer came at just about the same time as the outbreak of the rebellion of Xu Chang, a man who pretended to supernatural powers and made a rising at Juzhang in Kuaiji commandery, now in the region of Ningbo on the south of Hangzhou Bay


It doesn't definitively confirm he was a Daoist but certainly he was a mystic of some description.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:40 pm

I also would like to know your opinion on Cao Pi overthrowing the emperor. I think what Cao Pi did is right. Incompetent ruler ought to be replaced with a more competent one, and it seems Cao Pi was quite competent. Some said that he's ruthless, but if he, as Cao Xiu's SGZ states, "When Cao Xiu was about to leave, the emperor went to see him off personally with an escort of chariots, and alighted from his carriage to hold Cao Xiu’s hands in farewell" then I think he's quite a good guy. I don't get why both Shu and Wu hated that and now they're declaring themselves emperor. Didn't that just prove that they are, you know, hypocrite? Besides, I think Cao Pi is the best out of the three. Of course, Cao Cao is better but he's never an emperor.
So I think what I want to know is that do you think Cao Pi is wrong for usurping the throne?


Emperor Xian was never given a chance to rule and showed he was quite bright so hard to say he was incompetent. Cao Xiu was a childhood friend of Cao Pi's, it is a nice moment but people tend not to like him for the forced suicides and the executions (some unhappiness over treatment of brothers as well)

Culturally Cao Pi's ascension gets flak for a few reasons, the chaos that followed for centuries after meant the Han became a beacon of nostalgia and stability so the guy that ended it was not going to be popular. There were huge mandate of heaven debates from later generations between Shu and Wei, Wei's failure to unite the land was seen as reflecting badly on Cao Cao and Cao Pi as it meant Heaven didn't favour them which was seen as down to moral failings on their part.

Personally? No particular issue with it, he was clearly in a position to make the change. Maybe might have been better to unite land first but there are risks with that. Don't think it is fair to blame Shu and Wu for responding to such major chances with their own rather them hamper themselves, I don't think it proves them hypocrites.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PyroMystic » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:18 am

Sun Fin wrote:In Generals of the South Prof Rafe says the Chinese word used to describe Xu Chang is: yaoze. I don't know what connatations that word brings but he also says:

Sun Jian's appointment as a junior officer came at just about the same time as the outbreak of the rebellion of Xu Chang, a man who pretended to supernatural powers and made a rising at Juzhang in Kuaiji commandery, now in the region of Ningbo on the south of Hangzhou Bay


It doesn't definitively confirm he was a Daoist but certainly he was a mystic of some description.


Do you by any chance knows the hanzi for that? Anyway, thanks for the information!

Dong Zhou wrote:
I also would like to know your opinion on Cao Pi overthrowing the emperor. I think what Cao Pi did is right. Incompetent ruler ought to be replaced with a more competent one, and it seems Cao Pi was quite competent. Some said that he's ruthless, but if he, as Cao Xiu's SGZ states, "When Cao Xiu was about to leave, the emperor went to see him off personally with an escort of chariots, and alighted from his carriage to hold Cao Xiu’s hands in farewell" then I think he's quite a good guy. I don't get why both Shu and Wu hated that and now they're declaring themselves emperor. Didn't that just prove that they are, you know, hypocrite? Besides, I think Cao Pi is the best out of the three. Of course, Cao Cao is better but he's never an emperor.
So I think what I want to know is that do you think Cao Pi is wrong for usurping the throne?


Emperor Xian was never given a chance to rule and showed he was quite bright so hard to say he was incompetent. Cao Xiu was a childhood friend of Cao Pi's, it is a nice moment but people tend not to like him for the forced suicides and the executions (some unhappiness over treatment of brothers as well)

Culturally Cao Pi's ascension gets flak for a few reasons, the chaos that followed for centuries after meant the Han became a beacon of nostalgia and stability so the guy that ended it was not going to be popular. There were huge mandate of heaven debates from later generations between Shu and Wei, Wei's failure to unite the land was seen as reflecting badly on Cao Cao and Cao Pi as it meant Heaven didn't favour them which was seen as down to moral failings on their part.

Personally? No particular issue with it, he was clearly in a position to make the change. Maybe might have been better to unite land first but there are risks with that. Don't think it is fair to blame Shu and Wu for responding to such major chances with their own rather them hamper themselves, I don't think it proves them hypocrites.


The reason I said Emperor Xian was incompetent because Sun He was an incompetent successor for precisely the same reason as he is. If you have to compare between Sun He (whom you said is not a suitable heir) and Emperor Xian, which one do you think is better?

By forced suicide you mean the drama with Lady Zhen? Wait all these time I thought that was a legend to make Cao Pi looks bad?

Yeah, what he did to his brother is really brutal. But I think he simply did it to make himself in a more powerful position? I mean... the only reason Liu Bei killed Liu Feng is because he wanted to secure Liu Chan's position as his heir so perhaps Cao Pi isnt that bad?

Hmmm... that bit about Mandate of Heaven is really interesting. Do you know something about it? So there is this belief that Heaven would appoint someone as an Emperor and Cao Pi failing to unite China under Wei means Heaven didn't favor them? But the same could also be said about Liu Bei so I didn't understand why Shu is always glorified when Wei always get the shortest end of the stick (oh wait, that's Wu...)

Also, this is off topic, but does anyone know why Luo Guanzhong make Liu Bei (and Shu) to be the main protagonist of his novel while his source material does seem to be pretty much neutral?

Oh, and thanks a lot for the help!
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