Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:33 pm

Of course you can, hope this helps

1) Yuan Shu ordered the attack becuase Lu Kang denied him supplies, this was way before Yuan Shu became Emperor. I'm not sure Lu Kang and Yuan Shu were ever friends, Yuan Shu may simply have invited the families of the major families in the region to build support.

The attack was around 194, Yuan Shu becoming Emperor was 197. When Yuan Shu made that move, he was attacked by alliance of Cao Cao, Sun Ce and Lu Bu (I might be missing someone?)

2) As I understand it, birth places were less where actually born and more the family's traditional area. Lu Jun likely wasn't at Jiujiang, it was a post being claimed by Lu Kang but not under his control and would have been within his uncle Kang's area. I know families could be sent away and Kang sent family away before siege to Wu which would suggest they were at Lujiang

I'm not sure where the 178 comes from in encyclopaedia, that may not be accurate. In terms of Wu could be home-base if Cao Xiu's family was there, could be plenty of gentry families in same area. In terms of meeting, I suspect unlikely as Lu Xun probably sent to Wu after Cao Xiu had left.

3) Records say 40,000 and De Crespigny argues that it was exaggerated.

The generals talents are unknown to us (poor records+their first noted camapign) but they were picked by Liu Bei, their deaths meant a considerable part of Shu's next wave of talent was killed of and in Huang Qan's case, surrendered to Wei. It is seen as devastating for Shu becuase of that generation loss they couldn't afford, it confirmed they would only have one province and Hanzhong to fight with, their momentum was dead. Liu Bei's death soon after robbing Shu of arguably their best commander isn't connected but it adds to the feel.

The argument that both Wu and Shu were doomed by Yiling is more doomed by the events of 219. That it was the weakpoint of Wei with Cao Cao in a panic and elderly, Shu having momentum, that the allies still had some trust and if they pushed a coordinated attack, Wei might have been in trouble. That Shu and Wu never trusted each other as well afterwards, that such opportunities never turned up again.

Some don't find Lu Xun's performance that impressive due to being on defensive and handling of his men. They can still saythe result was devastating

4) Pang Tong accompanied Zhou Yu's body return to Wu, made lots of friends in Wu, got sacked by Liu Bei then reappointed into inner councils, urged invasion of Yi, urged Liu Zhang be seized at upcoming meeting, gave Liu Bei three plans for taking Yi, rebuked Liu Bei for celebrating too much during conquest, died.

Pang Tong was seen by those who knew him as a very intelligent man, he was good at building relations. Nickname came from talent spotter and uncle Páng Dégōng. His reputation is based on the clear respect he gained from those who knew him and his plans, including ability to produce three camapign plans. There is the sense that the conquest of Yi slowed down with his death and "what might have been"
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16308
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PyroMystic » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:21 pm

Hello! Thank you so much, Dong Zhou! Mind if I have some follow up question?
Dong Zhou wrote:Of course you can, hope this helps

1) Yuan Shu ordered the attack becuase Lu Kang denied him supplies, this was way before Yuan Shu became Emperor. I'm not sure Lu Kang and Yuan Shu were ever friends, Yuan Shu may simply have invited the families of the major families in the region to build support.

The attack was around 194, Yuan Shu becoming Emperor was 197. When Yuan Shu made that move, he was attacked by alliance of Cao Cao, Sun Ce and Lu Bu (I might be missing someone?)
I see. But this means that Lu Kang was against Yuan Shu being emperor is not true? Considering that Lu Kang died in 195 and Yuan Shu became emperor in 197?

As for Yuan Shu, is this coalition between Cao Cao, Sun Ce, and Lu Bu as big as the coalition against Dong Zhuo? If it wasn't the question would be why? Dong Zhuo's offense was, I think, not relatively as grave as Yuan Shu. I mean, Yuan Shu was declaring himself emperor and Dong Zhuo simply became an equivalent of prime minister. Why the opposition against Dong Zhuo seems to be greater than that against Yuan Shu?

2) As I understand it, birth places were less where actually born and more the family's traditional area. Lu Jun likely wasn't at Jiujiang, it was a post being claimed by Lu Kang but not under his control and would have been within his uncle Kang's area. I know families could be sent away and Kang sent family away before siege to Wu which would suggest they were at Lujiang

I'm not sure where the 178 comes from in encyclopaedia, that may not be accurate. In terms of Wu could be home-base if Cao Xiu's family was there, could be plenty of gentry families in same area. In terms of meeting, I suspect unlikely as Lu Xun probably sent to Wu after Cao Xiu had left.
But wouldn't this make it even complicated? I mean, Lu Kang had control over Jiujiang and Lujiang at the same time. Okay, this is possible. But somehow it is Wujun that is the home-base of Lu families?

Oh, and I've just found something even weirder. So when Sun Ce was trying to gain land from himself, he took Wujun from Liu Yao in 195. One or two year prior to this attack, Lu Kang sent Lu Xun and his family to Wujun (so yeah, he was sent after Cao Xiu had left). So Wujun was under the jurisdiction of Liu Yao but it was the home-base of the Lu's?

Here's what I think: Could it be the case that there are somehow two Wujun? The first Wujun was the one where Cao Xiu's grandfather served as well as being under Liu Yao's control during Sun Ce's conquest. The other Wujun was within Lujiang (or Jiujiang) and thus being under complete control of the Lu's. Because there were so much that took place in Wujun that the information doesn't match.

Also, what is gentry familes? I often heard this but do not know what this means :oops:

Also another stupider question: If Cao Xiu is in the Wu territory, why did he join Cao Cao? I know that he's Cao Cao's nephew but I think that alone is, I think, not suffice to be a good reason (after all, Zhuge Jin and Zhuge Liang served two different lords and they were okay with it).

3) Records say 40,000 and De Crespigny argues that it was exaggerated.

The generals talents are unknown to us (poor records+their first noted camapign) but they were picked by Liu Bei, their deaths meant a considerable part of Shu's next wave of talent was killed of and in Huang Qan's case, surrendered to Wei. It is seen as devastating for Shu becuase of that generation loss they couldn't afford, it confirmed they would only have one province and Hanzhong to fight with, their momentum was dead. Liu Bei's death soon after robbing Shu of arguably their best commander isn't connected but it adds to the feel.

The argument that both Wu and Shu were doomed by Yiling is more doomed by the events of 219. That it was the weakpoint of Wei with Cao Cao in a panic and elderly, Shu having momentum, that the allies still had some trust and if they pushed a coordinated attack, Wei might have been in trouble. That Shu and Wu never trusted each other as well afterwards, that such opportunities never turned up again.

Some don't find Lu Xun's performance that impressive due to being on defensive and handling of his men. They can still saythe result was devastating

So you're saying that the defeat in Yi Ling is devastating in a long term and in a big picture but it wasn't a big deal in a short-term? But then why did it, I think, causes Liu Bei's death?
忍辱负重 ~ rěn rǔ fù zhòng
||endure humiliation, bear burden||
《三国志 · 吴书 · 陸遜传 》
PyroMystic
Apprentice
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:50 am

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:23 pm

PyroMystic wrote:I see. But this means that Lu Kang was against Yuan Shu being emperor is not true? Considering that Lu Kang died in 195 and Yuan Shu became emperor in 197?


It’s not true, but might be based on a kernel of truth. I’ve read before that Lu Kang resisted Yuan Shu’s expansion, refusing to submit to his authority. Yuan Shu had been a fairly aggressive warlord before declaring himself Emperor.

PyroMystic wrote:As for Yuan Shu, is this coalition between Cao Cao, Sun Ce, and Lu Bu as big as the coalition against Dong Zhuo? If it wasn't the question would be why? Dong Zhuo's offense was, I think, not relatively as grave as Yuan Shu. I mean, Yuan Shu was declaring himself emperor and Dong Zhuo simply became an equivalent of prime minister. Why the opposition against Dong Zhuo seems to be greater than that against Yuan Shu?


A matter of timing. By the time Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor the country was embroiled in lots of little wars. Many warlords didn’t have the resources to go to war for the Han’s honour. Whereas Dong Zhuo’s offense kick started the whole era.

PyroMystic wrote:Oh, and I've just found something even weirder. So when Sun Ce was trying to gain land from himself, he took Wujun from Liu Yao in 195. One or two year prior to this attack, Lu Kang sent Lu Xun and his family to Wujun (so yeah, he was sent after Cao Xiu had left). So Wujun was under the jurisdiction of Liu Yao but it was the home-base of the Lu's?

Here's what I think: Could it be the case that there are somehow two Wujun? The first Wujun was the one where Cao Xiu's grandfather served as well as being under Liu Yao's control during Sun Ce's conquest. The other Wujun was within Lujiang (or Jiujiang) and thus being under complete control of the Lu's. Because there were so much that took place in Wujun that the information doesn't match.


I believe that the reason Sun Ce and Lu Xun met was because Xun was in Wujun when Ce conquered it. So, no I don’t think there are two.

PyroMystic wrote:Also, what is gentry familes? I often heard this but do not know what this means :oops:


Not a stupid question at all, gentry is a slang term for gentleman. So in Han terms the nobility.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:52 pm

Because this will help some of the questions: Sun Fin is right, the gentry are the nobility/the upper class/the rich land owners. The elite. Some families were national level elite like the Yuan's, some regional, some more local. They had the lands, the connections, the wealth (usually), the manpower, the free-time and wealth to be scholars, power of patronage and connections. They were a powerful political faction locally and nationally, usually conservative and Confucian, tended to protect their own interests and ideology.

The Han usually ensured their officers, like grand administrators, were not part of the locals, to try to give outside authority. Relations between ruler or the local officials with the gentry depending on situation, power balance and people involved. So while Cao Xiu's ancestor may have been the offical in charge of Wu but that would only have been for a spell, the Lu family would have been a power there for generations. Never formally in charge but powerful figures who Xiu's ancestor would have had to have been aware of

====

I see. But this means that Lu Kang was against Yuan Shu being emperor is not true? Considering that Lu Kang died in 195 and Yuan Shu became emperor in 197?

As for Yuan Shu, is this coalition between Cao Cao, Sun Ce, and Lu Bu as big as the coalition against Dong Zhuo? If it wasn't the question would be why? Dong Zhuo's offense was, I think, not relatively as grave as Yuan Shu. I mean, Yuan Shu was declaring himself emperor and Dong Zhuo simply became an equivalent of prime minister. Why the opposition against Dong Zhuo seems to be greater than that against Yuan Shu?


There can be a tendency to "Yuan Shu wished to become Emperor so everything he did was with that in mind"

To add to what Sun Fin said, state of war, more of the warlords had no threats, it was easy to form a sort of unified alliance with those they knew from capital. Also Dong Zhuo was a huge threat, he had the imperial army, his own army, considerable miliatry expirence. He could easily destroy them if they fell out amongst themselves, it was mutual interest. Yuan Shu's declaration was when foes like Yuan Shao and Liu Biao were busy elsewhere and couldn't come in, those that could had enough breathing space and saw opportunity to weaken a major rival

ut wouldn't this make it even complicated? I mean, Lu Kang had control over Jiujiang and Lujiang at the same time. Okay, this is possible. But somehow it is Wujun that is the home-base of Lu families?

Also another stupider question: If Cao Xiu is in the Wu territory, why did he join Cao Cao? I know that he's Cao Cao's nephew but I think that alone is, I think, not suffice to be a good reason (after all, Zhuge Jin and Zhuge Liang served two different lords and they were okay with it).


He didn't have control, he claimed it. It was a show of ambition and intent

Relations. Who is more likely to treat you well? A relative who would be impressed by you coming all that way or the local warlord? Families tended to serve same warlord

So you're saying that the defeat in Yi Ling is devastating in a long term and in a big picture but it wasn't a big deal in a short-term? But then why did it, I think, causes Liu Bei's death?


A wipe out of an army and all it represented still hurt Shu badly short term. Liu Bei seems to have had something wrong in his stomach that was killing him.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16308
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ValHellen » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 am

How seriously can we take the Zhao Yun Biezhuan?

It's been bothering me how many people disparage Zhao Yun for being "overrated", going so far as to say he was really a nobody, but I do realize most of his better feats came from the Biezhuan.

Depending on how acceptable the Biezhuan is, Zhao Yun's worth'd vary, I'd think. I personally don't really agree to call him a nobody regardless of Biezhuan's authenticity. I doubt Chen Shou had any agenda when he indirectly called him one of Shu's most famed general when he commented on Chen Dao, but he still called Zilong that. You don't get called most famed for no reason.

But what's kongming.net's opinion on Zhao Yun?
User avatar
ValHellen
Apprentice
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:37 pm

I accept it becuase professional historians seem to but I suspect they do that becuase it provides much needed fleshing out of Lady Sun and Zhao Yun without contradicting other sources. Those that reject it as not backed up by anything and unclear ownership do have a fair case for going no so people are split
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16308
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm

Dont agree with the above. I’ve never heard a fair argument for disregarding or disbelieving that text. The only people who do are ones who want a excuse to hold onto a negative opinion. They start discrediting the source when they can’t argue effectively any more. Chen Shou used local biographies when he compiled his work. He didn’t list the names of these so I don’t see the difference.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1436
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:27 pm

Dumb question whats the Biezhuan? I assume some sort of historical record?
User avatar
greencactaur
Master
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:44 pm

greencactaur wrote:Dumb question whats the Biezhuan? I assume some sort of historical record?


Not a stupid question at all. It's an set of annotations in Zhao Yun's SGZ about Zhao Yun's life.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16308
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:53 pm

Oh that's interesting. Is there a English translation online?
User avatar
greencactaur
Master
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved