Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:33 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Qin Feng wrote:What is it that Wen Chou and Yan Liang did that was so badass that killing them was a big deal? Were they simply very good in combat or something?


To add to what Daolun said, of their careers we have promoted after fall of Gongsun Zan/pre Guan Du, the negative comments of certain others, their deaths then "oh by the way, they were two most famed officers and Yuan forces lost morale."

It isn't much. A lot of Yuan officers suffer from knowing little till it comes to facing Cao Cao's forces (and getting cuaght up in a "compare and contrast" issue with Yuan Shao vs Cao Cao). They were clearly noted within their own time so presumably did very good jobs at lower levels, they were noted for bravery and may well have been very good fighters that perhaps got promoted a level too far (or killed while learning about such a level). The Yuan hit to moral may also have been that Yuan offensive (after early defensive defeats to Yu Jin) had started with two generals being killed very quickly.


good, but not nearly that experienced as Qu Yi i presume. Brave but reckless. I bet if Yuan Shao didnt execute Qu Yi for an offense, he would've proven an adversary to Cao Cao forces than those two (Yan Liang & Wen Chou). The guy (Yuan Shao) are clearly prideful man, some lords even tolerate such offense if the general clearly has uses and proven to be an assets to his country. :|

the guy also clearly shown of his ineptitude at using talent properly at times, i bet Zhang He and Gao Lan received similar treatment like Huang Zu toward Gan Ning. See, there wasn't much told about both general while serving Yuan Shao, only the time they sent in a futile mission to storm Cao Cao's camp on Guandu, with just few thousands of light cavalry. Ju Shou was promoted bc he uses the word of praise in his long term strategy to Yuan Shao, and he (Ju Shou) seems to forgotten how he promoted in the first place.

Why Zhang Liao was never placed against Shu's frontier? Most of skilled general under Cao Cao, were all actives against Shu. Like Cao Zhen, Xu Huang, Zhang He, the Xiahou etc. why not Zhang Liao? was Cao Cao afraid he'd defected to Shu as he was known to be close friend of Guan Yu that times?

Why Gao Shun was executed? He was a skilled commander at times, and Cao Cao seems to appreciate talented people. He pardoned Zhang Liao, but not Gao Shun, why?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:15 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:good, but not nearly that experienced as Qu Yi i presume. Brave but reckless. I bet if Yuan Shao didnt execute Qu Yi for an offense, he would've proven an adversary to Cao Cao forces than those two (Yan Liang & Wen Chou). The guy (Yuan Shao) are clearly prideful man, some lords even tolerate such offense if the general clearly has uses and proven to be an assets to his country. :|


They were of lesser rank and this was their first time as a general. Qu Yi would probably have indeed proven a tougher challenge for Cao Cao but his head seems to have gone and it wouldn't have fixed the wider issues

Most warlords had a sense of pride and did not tolerate generals getting out of control. We don't know the exact offence but notably, nobody criticized Yuan Shao for executing Qu Yi, even his opponents. If a general has got out of control, it is difficult to use them

Li_Shengsun wrote:the guy also clearly shown of his ineptitude at using talent properly at times, i bet Zhang He and Gao Lan received similar treatment like Huang Zu toward Gan Ning. See, there wasn't much told about both general while serving Yuan Shao, only the time they sent in a futile mission to storm Cao Cao's camp on Guandu, with just few thousands of light cavalry. Ju Shou was promoted bc he uses the word of praise in his long term strategy to Yuan Shao, and he (Ju Shou) seems to forgotten how he promoted in the first place.


It's hard to begrudge Huang Zu being wary of Gan Ning given Gan Ning's past record and general behaviour afterwards.

We have no record of Gao Lan but Zhang He was, though we get little detail, often used against Gongsun Zan, was promoted twice by Yuan Shao and given a key task at Guandu so unlike the Gan Ning situation. The lack of records is due to a basic lack of records about the Yuan's overall. They had siege engines and there is nothing to suggest they just had light cavalry (you might be thinking of force sent to Wuchao?) to attack Cao Cao's fortifications at Guandu

Ju Shou was promoted becuase he was set out a plan and overall vision that impressed Yuan Shao and was a rising figure in Ji. Not sure what you mean by forgetting how he got promotion?

Li_Shengsun wrote:Why Zhang Liao was never placed against Shu's frontier? Most of skilled general under Cao Cao, were all actives against Shu. Like Cao Zhen, Xu Huang, Zhang He, the Xiahou etc. why not Zhang Liao? was Cao Cao afraid he'd defected to Shu as he was known to be close friend of Guan Yu that times?


He was based on the Wu front. He would have gained local knowledge of things like terrain, had a reputation with Wu and it was Wei's main focus mostly. If he leaves, someone trusted needs to be sent to Hefei. There isn't any suggestion Cao Cao was worried about Zhang Liao's loyalty and he was willing to use him against Guan Yu had Xu Huang failed

Li_Shengsun wrote:Why Gao Shun was executed? He was a skilled commander at times, and Cao Cao seems to appreciate talented people. He pardoned Zhang Liao, but not Gao Shun, why?


It is hard to know why Gao Shun specifically was executed. Possibly his being captured counted against him whereas Zhang Liao surrendered
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:00 am

Dong Zhou wrote:They were of lesser rank and this was their first time as a general. Qu Yi would probably have indeed proven a tougher challenge for Cao Cao but his head seems to have gone and it wouldn't have fixed the wider issues

Most warlords had a sense of pride and did not tolerate generals getting out of control. We don't know the exact offence but notably, nobody criticized Yuan Shao for executing Qu Yi, even his opponents. If a general has got out of control, it is difficult to use them


Dong Zhou wrote:It's hard to begrudge Huang Zu being wary of Gan Ning given Gan Ning's past record and general behaviour afterwards.

We have no record of Gao Lan but Zhang He was, though we get little detail, often used against Gongsun Zan, was promoted twice by Yuan Shao and given a key task at Guandu so unlike the Gan Ning situation. The lack of records is due to a basic lack of records about the Yuan's overall. They had siege engines and there is nothing to suggest they just had light cavalry (you might be thinking of force sent to Wuchao?) to attack Cao Cao's fortifications at Guandu

Ju Shou was promoted becuase he was set out a plan and overall vision that impressed Yuan Shao and was a rising figure in Ji. Not sure what you mean by forgetting how he got promotion?


Yea i know he (Zhang He) was one of general who fought against Zan. A war that spanned for many years due to Yuan's inability to breach Zan's castle defense. Doesn't mean Zhang He was experienced as well.
yea, sorry. i kind of mixed with Wuchao things. but the general idea was that Yuan Shao doesn't give Zhang He much of his men to storm a place they even besieged for quite long with no avail, because it was meant for a diversion so that Cao may pulled his men from Wuchao (in which its fail). It doesn't need Guo Tu to slander both general, sooner or later they'll defect since they send there as a sacrificial pawn.

Well, you put it yourself on Analysis of Yuan Shao's thread, that Ju Shou used a mix of praise in his overall vision and plan. And Yuan Shao is a type who love to get praise. So i thought its because of that Ju Shou was promoted to the fullest. and him opposing things during Guandu werent use that 'mix of praise' so Yuan Shao doesnt like hearing it.

Dong Zhou wrote:He was based on the Wu front. He would have gained local knowledge of things like terrain, had a reputation with Wu and it was Wei's main focus mostly. If he leaves, someone trusted needs to be sent to Hefei. There isn't any suggestion Cao Cao was worried about Zhang Liao's loyalty and he was willing to use him against Guan Yu had Xu Huang failed


i think it was hardly that Xu Huang would fail given how careful the man was. and given the real situation during the siege on Fancheng, the odd was clearly on Cao-Sun side rather then Yu's.
Well, he couldve just put Cao Ren on Wu's frontier instead of Liao since Cao Ren was noted for his castle defensive skill. I think it was a merely an exaggeration of using Zhang Liao against Yu. See, if Yu breached Fancheng and marched his army to Xuchang, Zhang Liao wont be able to arrive in time given how far Hefei is from Xuchang and Wu mightve choose to attack Hefei instead of attacking Yu's rear. I meant to say, Zhang Liao wont be able to help his lord if that happen, let alone of using him against Yu.

Dong Zhou wrote:It is hard to know why Gao Shun specifically was executed. Possibly his being captured counted against him whereas Zhang Liao surrendered


So, Cao Cao only pardoned those who surrendered? :/

Han wrote:Lei Xu, a leader of force of Lujiang number 20k plus travelled to Gongan to submit to Liu Bei although Sun Quan and Cao Cao occupied territory inbetween.


wasn't Lei Xu is the one who led a resistance/dissidents against Xiahou Yuan prior Cao's occupying on Hanzhong was the same person as the one who rob Yuan Shu?

---

Does Zhuge Zhan were able to win against Deng Ai if he used more careful approach?
well, ive read his bio on Wiki. It was a clever move of him disguised as his father to scare the enemy, but he's kind of impatient. instead of holding a defensive position, he chased the fleeing enemy and were forced into battle to death with Deng Ai's men.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:39 pm

Yea i know he (Zhang He) was one of general who fought against Zan. A war that spanned for many years due to Yuan's inability to breach Zan's castle defense. Doesn't mean Zhang He was experienced as well.
yea, sorry. i kind of mixed with Wuchao things. but the general idea was that Yuan Shao doesn't give Zhang He much of his men to storm a place they even besieged for quite long with no avail, because it was meant for a diversion so that Cao may pulled his men from Wuchao (in which its fail). It doesn't need Guo Tu to slander both general, sooner or later they'll defect since they send there as a sacrificial pawn.


Well Zhang He was already in the army under Han Fu, was said to have many achievements fighting under Yuan Shao, got promoted. While we lack the detail of what Zhang He did in those many years, it would suggest he got a fair bit of expirnece

The main criticism of the strategy that day seems to be that Zhang He's attack was the main focus and Wuchou reinforcements was secondary force, the idea would seem to be to take the Cao camp and open up the route to Xuchang. It doesn't seem to have been a diversion force

Li_Shengsun wrote:Well, you put it yourself on Analysis of Yuan Shao's thread, that Ju Shou used a mix of praise in his overall vision and plan. And Yuan Shao is a type who love to get praise. So i thought its because of that Ju Shou was promoted to the fullest. and him opposing things during Guandu werent use that 'mix of praise' so Yuan Shao doesnt like hearing it.


Most people like getting praise and flattery to sweeten the pill of the idea (or criticism) to one's warlord wasn't uncommon so not just Yuan Shao, Ju Shou was trying to make his big impression (or historians added a bit of flowery language). Ju Shou got the job becuase his big idea cuaght Yuan Shao's attention and he seems to impressed (also becuase it was early in Yuan Shao's warlording days, that could allow for rapid advancement)

Shao and Ju Shou had a fundamental strategic disagreement at Guandu, I don't think either did much to keep trust between the two (Shao clipping Ju Shou's power, Ju Shou's behaviour during campaign) but it wasn't a flattery issue.

Li_Shengsun wrote:i think it was hardly that Xu Huang would fail given how careful the man was. and given the real situation during the siege on Fancheng, the odd was clearly on Cao-Sun side rather then Yu's.
Well, he couldve just put Cao Ren on Wu's frontier instead of Liao since Cao Ren was noted for his castle defensive skill. I think it was a merely an exaggeration of using Zhang Liao against Yu. See, if Yu breached Fancheng and marched his army to Xuchang, Zhang Liao wont be able to arrive in time given how far Hefei is from Xuchang and Wu mightve choose to attack Hefei instead of attacking Yu's rear. I meant to say, Zhang Liao wont be able to help his lord if that happen, let alone of using him against Yu.


It is strange Cao Cao felt the need for three armies to be summoned as a just in case. None the less, he summoned Zhang Liao for it. Was it a good idea? In my view, no.

Why make that change of Jing and Hefei commanders? Why disrupt the defences of Jing and Hefei by swapping the two commanders around? Once Wei found commanders that worked for an area, they tended to stick with them there.

Li_Shengsun wrote:So, Cao Cao only pardoned those who surrendered? :/


He was willing to use those he captured however being captured when down to last city may not have helped Gao Shun's fate. It could be "well I executed the other two" or Gao Shun's reaction to it. There is no recorded reason

wasn't Lei Xu is the one who led a resistance/dissidents against Xiahou Yuan prior Cao's occupying on Hanzhong was the same person as the one who rob Yuan Shu?


Professor De Crespigny says probably

Does Zhuge Zhan were able to win against Deng Ai if he used more careful approach?
well, ive read his bio on Wiki. It was a clever move of him disguised as his father to scare the enemy, but he's kind of impatient. instead of holding a defensive position, he chased the fleeing enemy and were forced into battle to death with Deng Ai's men.


The disguised as father is from novel. Zhuge Zhan's SGZ

Huang Chong did advise a more defensive approach and that would seem to have been a better option then Zhuge Zhan's plan, hold position and play for time rather then engage a man of Deng Ai's expirence and skills in open battle
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:55 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Well Zhang He was already in the army under Han Fu, was said to have many achievements fighting under Yuan Shao, got promoted. While we lack the detail of what Zhang He did in those many years, it would suggest he got a fair bit of expirnece

The main criticism of the strategy that day seems to be that Zhang He's attack was the main focus and Wuchou reinforcements was secondary force, the idea would seem to be to take the Cao camp and open up the route to Xuchang. It doesn't seem to have been a diversion force


regardless of diversion force or not, the thing is Zhang He failed to take Cao's camp on Guandu. Whether he get only few troops or weak troops. It was either Shao doesnt trust him that much or Zhang He just had no experience in siege warfare given how long their war with Zan was.

Dong Zhou wrote:Most people like getting praise and flattery to sweeten the pill of the idea (or criticism) to one's warlord wasn't uncommon so not just Yuan Shao, Ju Shou was trying to make his big impression (or historians added a bit of flowery language). Ju Shou got the job becuase his big idea cuaght Yuan Shao's attention and he seems to impressed (also becuase it was early in Yuan Shao's warlording days, that could allow for rapid advancement)
Shao and Ju Shou had a fundamental strategic disagreement at Guandu, I don't think either did much to keep trust between the two (Shao clipping Ju Shou's power, Ju Shou's behaviour during campaign) but it wasn't a flattery issue.


I see, so its more into trust issues then.


Dong Zhou wrote:It is strange Cao Cao felt the need for three armies to be summoned as a just in case. None the less, he summoned Zhang Liao for it. Was it a good idea? In my view, no.

Why make that change of Jing and Hefei commanders? Why disrupt the defences of Jing and Hefei by swapping the two commanders around? Once Wei found commanders that worked for an area, they tended to stick with them there.


Well, i meant to say, if Cao really wanted to use Zhang liao against Yu, it would be better to place him on Jing instead of Hefei. Since summoning him would meant leaving Hefei/Shouchun without commander and Wu would see those as an opportunity. like, Sun Quan: "hey, the guy (Zhang Liao) who scared us to death is away on capital, why not seize the place (Hefei) now?" , Lu Meng: "good idea, we can take more cities while Cao was busy with Yu"
and then Wu sent both armies to take southern Jing and Hefei at the same time, and leave Yu alone. :D


Dong Zhou wrote:The disguised as father is from novel. Zhuge Zhan's SGZ

Huang Chong did advise a more defensive approach and that would seem to have been a better option then Zhuge Zhan's plan, hold position and play for time rather then engage a man of Deng Ai's expirence and skills in open battle


Sorry, again im mixing both novel and sgz :/

it does a better option, especially against the enemy with limited supply without retreat route.

---

i still have a question thats been bother me for quite long. Why Zhuge Liang banned the position of historian on Shu?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:41 pm

regardless of diversion force or not, the thing is Zhang He failed to take Cao's camp on Guandu. Whether he get only few troops or weak troops. It was either Shao doesnt trust him that much or Zhang He just had no experience in siege warfare given how long their war with Zan was.


Edit: Zirroxas gave a far better answer then I did

I see, so its more into trust issues then.


To flesh out my thoughts

The main issue at the end was they simply disagreed on the right strategy for way to go forward. Yuan Shao felt direct approach was best, Ju Shou wanted a more defensive strategy and with such disagreement, however much they trust each other or not, it is hard to compromise.

There were issues between the two. Yuan Shao may not have meant it as a loss of trust but splitting Ju Shou's authority is still a bad signal and shows he did agree with the complaints that Shou's power was too dangerous which isn't a great show of trust, even if it was less about Shou himself then the position. Ju Shou can't have taken that well and with his worries about the camapign, he wanted to go home, his attempts to do so clearly did nothing to endear him to Yuan Shao. Yet right till his capture, Ju Shou was in Yuan Shao's inner most councils

Well, i meant to say, if Cao really wanted to use Zhang liao against Yu, it would be better to place him on Jing instead of Hefei. Since summoning him would meant leaving Hefei/Shouchun without commander and Wu would see those as an opportunity. like, Sun Quan: "hey, the guy (Zhang Liao) who scared us to death is away on capital, why not seize the place (Hefei) now?" , Lu Meng: "good idea, we can take more cities while Cao was busy with Yu"
and then Wu sent both armies to take southern Jing and Hefei at the same time, and leave Yu alone. :D


I agree, pulling Zhang Liao from Hefei as a second/third wave was a bad plan for a variety of reasons. It wasn't a Zhang Liao would be better then Cao Ren though, Cao Cao was just throwing everything he had at Guan Yu

Sorry, again im mixing both novel and sgz :/

it does a better option, especially against the enemy with limited supply without retreat route.

---

i still have a question thats been bother me for quite long. Why Zhuge Liang banned the position of historian on Shu?


Don't be sorry for that, most of us do so at one point or another and the wiki gave you wrong impression.

In terms of the Zhuge Liang question, the short answer is he didn't. It is a... urban myth in the 3k community. Chen Shou bemoaned Shu not having a history department (he served in Shu's history department so he was exaggerating), Shu's records are notably poor, that seems to have given people the wrong idea and it spread.

Why was Shu's history department so bad? History/record departments are the sort of thing that seems to get neglected when resources are limited and focus goes to bigger priorities, history department runs but there isn't drive, resources and focus in it, one of those "we will get round to it tomorrow" projects. It happened near Wu's end and Shu's never started. Perhaps not helped by an early history project seeing horrible infighting to point Liu Bei put on play to mock the situation, and what seems to be a Jing vs Yi scholars divide.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby zirroxas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:18 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:regardless of diversion force or not, the thing is Zhang He failed to take Cao's camp on Guandu. Whether he get only few troops or weak troops. It was either Shao doesnt trust him that much or Zhang He just had no experience in siege warfare given how long their war with Zan was.


This doesn't have much to do with his experience in siege warfare or how many troops he had. He was ordered to break through a heavily fortified position in the space of a few hours. That's the reason that sieges turn into long, grueling, attrition-heavy affairs, because storming the walls is very risky and very costly if the defender puts up a fight. If you win, you win with huge casualties, sometimes more than the defenders, unless they surrender rather quickly. Since most armies needed to preserve their troops and not waste lives, it was often best to starve the enemy out.

Guandu was manned by some of Cao Cao's best men who likely know they're playing for time. They weren't going to surrender just because the enemy made it over the walls like a bunch of local militia. They'd put up a desperate fight all the way to the end. Even if the Yuan forces had the numbers to trade for Guandu itself, it'd take quite a while to either kill everyone or kill enough that the remainder see no hope and surrender.

Remember that in a siege assault, you usually can't engage your entire force all at once because of the tightness of the defenses. A smart defender is going to gradually draw back so that you have as few avenues of approach as possible as the battle progresses and a lot of your army is going to be waiting around for the guys the front to die while possibly being peppered with missiles. Meanwhile, the defender gets to be a lot more efficient with their deployment since its usually concave and easy to shift people around in.

Cao Cao stormed Wuchao because he was desperate, had the element of surprise, and presumably Wuchao wasn't as heavily fortified, as it was just a supply depot set up for the campaign and not supposed to be engaged. Guandu had clearly been prepared for quite some time as a breakwater that any northern invasion would have to run up against. The Yuan had already been sieging it for some time with little success. Throwing the bulk of the army against it was a move borne out of desperation. Even if they could theoretically take it with enough force, they were on a time limit before Wuchao fell and the panic destroyed the army.

At the end of the day, the amount and quality of men that Zhang He and the other Yuan commanders had wasn't the problem. There just wasn't enough time.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:04 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Don't be sorry for that, most of us do so at one point or another and the wiki gave you wrong impression.

In terms of the Zhuge Liang question, the short answer is he didn't. It is a... urban myth in the 3k community. Chen Shou bemoaned Shu not having a history department (he served in Shu's history department so he was exaggerating), Shu's records are notably poor, that seems to have given people the wrong idea and it spread.

Why was Shu's history department so bad? History/record departments are the sort of thing that seems to get neglected when resources are limited and focus goes to bigger priorities, history department runs but there isn't drive, resources and focus in it, one of those "we will get round to it tomorrow" projects. It happened near Wu's end and Shu's never started. Perhaps not helped by an early history project seeing horrible infighting to point Liu Bei put on play to mock the situation, and what seems to be a Jing vs Yi scholars divide.


i see, so thats how it is.

well, perhaps how poor it is make him bemoaned, i know that Chen Shou do serve as historian but he wasn't around during the rise of Shu, so your statement of Shu's records were poorly written are true.

Edit - i think to give a more plausible explanation, that Chen Shou was around when most of people from Liu Bei's day were either dead or too old to remember such detail, or just unreliable source (since its only from their point of view). And what he can get is either from hearsay, folklore/song (idk what to call those children song thing). werent Chen Shou start writing those SGZ after the fall of Shu?

zirroxas wrote:This doesn't have much to do with his experience in siege warfare or how many troops he had. He was ordered to break through a heavily fortified position in the space of a few hours. That's the reason that sieges turn into long, grueling, attrition-heavy affairs, because storming the walls is very risky and very costly if the defender puts up a fight. If you win, you win with huge casualties, sometimes more than the defenders, unless they surrender rather quickly. Since most armies needed to preserve their troops and not waste lives, it was often best to starve the enemy out.

Guandu was manned by some of Cao Cao's best men who likely know they're playing for time. They weren't going to surrender just because the enemy made it over the walls like a bunch of local militia. They'd put up a desperate fight all the way to the end. Even if the Yuan forces had the numbers to trade for Guandu itself, it'd take quite a while to either kill everyone or kill enough that the remainder see no hope and surrender.

Remember that in a siege assault, you usually can't engage your entire force all at once because of the tightness of the defenses. A smart defender is going to gradually draw back so that you have as few avenues of approach as possible as the battle progresses and a lot of your army is going to be waiting around for the guys the front to die while possibly being peppered with missiles. Meanwhile, the defender gets to be a lot more efficient with their deployment since its usually concave and easy to shift people around in.

Cao Cao stormed Wuchao because he was desperate, had the element of surprise, and presumably Wuchao wasn't as heavily fortified, as it was just a supply depot set up for the campaign and not supposed to be engaged. Guandu had clearly been prepared for quite some time as a breakwater that any northern invasion would have to run up against. The Yuan had already been sieging it for some time with little success. Throwing the bulk of the army against it was a move borne out of desperation. Even if they could theoretically take it with enough force, they were on a time limit before Wuchao fell and the panic destroyed the army.

At the end of the day, the amount and quality of men that Zhang He and the other Yuan commanders had wasn't the problem. There just wasn't enough time.


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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:56 pm

well, perhaps how poor it is make him bemoaned, i know that Chen Shou do serve as historian but he wasn't around during the rise of Shu, so your statement of Shu's records were poorly written are true.

Edit - i think to give a more plausible explanation, that Chen Shou was around when most of people from Liu Bei's day were either dead or too old to remember such detail, or just unreliable source (since its only from their point of view). And what he can get is either from hearsay, folklore/song (idk what to call those children song thing). werent Chen Shou start writing those SGZ after the fall of Shu?


Yes Chen Shou was making a point about the poor records by use of exaggeration, problem is people take it to be actually true that Shu had no history department.

Chen Shou's sources were the records of each kingdom which, in Shu's case, would have been created by his predecessors and himself during his time in that department, he compiled and edited those records, he didn't tend to (though usually clear when he does add his own commentary) add to it with folklore or tales from those of his time. He did that work after Shu's fall as a private project I believe
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PyroMystic » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:32 pm

Hello! May I ask a few questions?

1. Yuan Shu, as far as I know, used to be a good friend of Lu Kang the elder (Lu Xun's granduncle, not his son). This is proven by the orange incident which makes Lu Ji (Lu Kang's son) one of the 24 pillars of filial piety. So here Yuan Shu invited Lu Kang and apparently they seem to be in a good term. But then Yuan Shu ordered Sun Ce to attack Lu Kang. So my question is:
a. Is it true that Yuan Shu ordered Sun Ce to attack Lu Kang? I have also read somewhere that Sun Ce hated Lu Kang for looking down on him so it might be very well the case that Sun Ce was the one who initiated this attack.
b. Suppose it is true that Yuan Shu indeed was the one who ordered the attack, why did Yuan Shu do this to his old-time friend? Some said it is because Lu Kang opposes Yuan Shu's attempt to be emperor. Is this true? But virtually EVERYONE would oppose Yuan Shu if this is the case. And yet, Yuan Shu only paid attention at Lu Kang.
c. Also, if Yuan Shu really did attempted to be emperor, then wasn't there any sort of alliance against him? I mean, we have Dong Zhuo who didn't go as far as claiming himself emperor but everyone was trying to kill him. Then there was Cao Cao who didn't even want to be emperor, but Wu and Shu were so eager to defeat him. So why did everyone ignores Yuan Shu's treachery now?

2. The next question is about Lu Xun and Cao Xiu. And no, I am not talking about Battle of Shiting.
The annotation on Lu Xun's bio read as such:
Lu Xun’s grandfather, Lu Yu (陸紆), had the style name of Shupen (叔盆). He was a virtuous man, quick in wits, and served as a Colonel of the City Gates. Lu Xun’s father, Lu Jun (陸駿), who had the style name of Jicai (季才), was magnanimous and trustworthy, greatly loved by the different families in the clan. The highest rank he held was Chief Commandant of Jiujiang (九江).
However, Wikipedia article says that,
He was born in a family of high social status in Wu County, Wu Commandery
As for Cao Xiu, it is said that,
Cao Xiu’s grandfather had once been the Grand Administrator of Wu Commandary.
Also,
His father died, and he carried the coffin personally to the burial site, with just one servant to help him. After that, he took his elderly mother and crossed the Yangtze River into the Wu lands

Please bear in mind that Cao Xiu was born in 178 (according to KMA) while Lu Xun 183.
My question would be:
a. How could Lu Xun be born in Wu Commandery when his father was still in office in Jiujiang? I have checked a map and, if the map is accurate, then Jiujiang is actually very far away from Wu Commandery. To reach Wu Commandery, one must pass Lujiang first. Is my map wrong? Or is any of these information wrong? (As for me, I always thought that Lu Xun's father was the Chief Commandant of Wu Commandery. Turns out he is Chief Commandant of Jiujiang)
b. So Lu Xun was born in Wu commandery but his father was the Chief Commandant of Jiujiang. Prior to his father's death, where did Lu Xun live during that time? In Jiujiang r Wu Commandery?
c. What shocked me was that it turns out Cao Xiu's grandfather is the Grand Administrator of Wu Commandary. Now it is said that Cao Xiu lived there until the coalition against Dong Zhuo. Since the coalition was formed in 190, and since Cao Xiu was born in 178, then that means Cao Xiu was 12 when he joined Cao Cao. But is this true? I know Cao Xiu was a great warrior but being 12 during the first battle seems to be somewhat impossible.
d. If Cao Xiu's grandfather is the Grand Administrator of Wu Commandary, how could it be the case that Wu Commandery is the Lu's family homebase (because that's where Lu Kang sent Lu Xun and his family to when Lujiang was sieged)?
e. Lastly, do you think there is a possibility that Cao Xiu met Lu Xun during his time in Wu Commandery (assuming that Lu Xun was not just born there but lived there for some times)?

3. The exact number of Shu troops participated in the battle of Yi Ling is unknown, I think. Some claim it is 40,000, but some say it's just the vanguard. I personally think it is about 60,000-80,000? (Someone here claim it's about 100,000 but we cannot say for sure). But 60,000-80,000 is not a huge number. Also, Liu Bei lost some generals, but they were not some renowned generals. So why some claim that Liu Bei's defeat was so devastating they (both Shu and Wu) lost ALL chance to defeat Wei?
(Now I do not mean to bash anyone here, but ironically, the people who downplay Lu Xun's achievement in Yi Ling by claiming that the number of Shu troops were not that big and the generals are not so great are the same people who blames Wu for the battle of Yi Ling saying that the defeat were so great and Wu effectively destroyed any chance of them ever defeating Cao Cao. So which one is true? Is Wu's victory at Yi Ling that impressive (to the point of crippling Shu forever) or it is not (because the loss Shu suffered was not that great)?)

4. Lastly, this does not meant to bash any person but here's an honest question: What did Pang Tong actually do? I read KMA and here's what it says,
Pang Tong did not historically falsely defect to Cao Cao‘s forces, invent the ‘chaining of the ships’ idea that weakened Cao Cao’s navy at the battle of Chibi or come up with the idea to burn Cao Cao’s armada.
Pang Tong governed Leiyang poorly because he was bad at administrative duty. He did not remedy the problem, as the novel implies, after failing in his job.
Pang Tong did not historically advise Liu Bei to assassinate Liu Zhang, or incite Wei Yan to kill Liu Zhang at a banquet.
So what Pang Tong did was to advice Liu Bei on how to capture Yizhou. But I personally think that Fa Zheng could help him for this (after his defection, of course). I did not read Pang Tong's SGZ, so could someone please give me a short summary on what Pang Tong do AFTER THE BATTLE OF CHIBI? I'm not asking about his achievement prior to this battle. Also, could someone please tell me why Pang Tong gained so much recognition and known as "Young Phoenix"? Is this novel-only or historical? Did he really deserve all the fame and love? Also, why did Lu Su think highly of him?

Phew, that was really long. I'm sorry for asking so much :oops: Would be grateful to anyone who takes time to read and answer them. Thank you!
忍辱负重 ~ rěn rǔ fù zhòng
||endure humiliation, bear burden||
《三国志 · 吴书 · 陸遜传 》
PyroMystic
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