Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Qin Feng » Mon May 07, 2018 8:13 am

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:The 10 points speech is from Xun Yu in the SGZ, however Pei Songzhi appended the Fu Zi onto Guo Jia's SGZ which includes a Ten Points speech given by Guo JIa.

Chen Shou would have had both versions at his disposal, and he chose to go with Xun Yu's versions as the accurate version. Luo Guanzhong chose to go with the Fu Zi when writing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and so he gives this speech to Guo Jia, thus popularizing it as something from Guo Jia.

It's possible that the Fu Zi is correct, however Chen Shou disagreed.


Alright, thank you! I guess what matters is to explain the situation between the two forces rather than who said the speech.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon May 07, 2018 12:52 pm

Han wrote:Cao Pi did not base his prediction off spywork but connecting spies information of Liu Bei geography and encampments with personal knowledge. Hua Xin was also not involved in Sun Ce war against Wang Lang. Hua Xin was comparing his army to Yuzhang commandery. Not Sun Ce. Yiling was quite close to Xiangyang and Shangyong.


So based on spywork. His troops were, his (former) lord was. Remember the context of the chat. Which is not where Cao Pi is camped.

Because Cao Pi announced his prediction in front of various ministers and so had the benefit of being recorded down while others did not. So one can predict someone will fail in exactly 7 years base off nothing but not losing in a week due to geography? Haha.


So an amazing coincidence that only one of thousands of predictions, including from Emperors was recorded this one time?

Soothsaying. Different rules and you have forgotten what I have said about soothsaying in past?

Thats not what I claimed. I claimed that Tian Feng begged Yuan Shao to attack Liu Bei weak points like how Cao Pi predicted that Sun Quan would do the same to Liu Bei.


I know. Thing is, I'm not asking for "was spies ever used effectively." Tian Feng is taking spy information about the enemy they are about to fight and using it to form a strategy, perfectly normal and sensible. Different from being able to predict the moment of camapign victory of a camapign person is not involved in many many many miles away. Which only happens once. To a man who struggled to win big battles. Who just happens to be newly enthroned Emperor.

Literally the prophecies.


Soothsaying so different rules. Can you find a non mystic/oracle more outstanding prediction?

And Yiling was within Xiangyang and Shangyong. There were no battles for Ke to predict.


Yes there were. There were plenty of battles in Zhuge Ke's lifetime that he wasn't involved in. How many did he predict the exact timing of?
Maybe some did but it was not recorded. Maybe they didnt because of different circumstances. Liu Bei and Sun Quan had been in a stalemate for months. Not much of a delay. No cities were built. Only an army encampments.


You have one instance, which just happens to be about the Emperor. This isn't a few times which we can then translate into "and probably happened more often". Are you saying there was no long stalemate in rest of 3kingdoms? I doubt it so what is so special about Yiling that no other camapign ever could be predicted in same way?

I didn't claim cities were built, you may have misread my point there.

http://www.guoxue123.com/Shibu/0101/00sgzf/001.htm

and so on


Given I can't read Chinese, not entirely sure how you think that helps? If you have translations, that would help

Again, Cao Pi having military knowledge and being praised for it is not propaganda.


Being the only one in 3kingdoms to make such a prediction? Just as he becomes Emperor? Seems like it to me

Yeah. Chen Shou, Pei SongZhi and Sima Guang, people who lived in antiquity China and wrote SGZ and ZZTJ were the ones who claimed it. And so did Cao Pi who actually lived in 3K China.


Can you quote all four of them (translated please) saying Liu Bei was in swampland? I can't see swamps mentioned in Liu Bei's sgz. Lu Xun's sgz mentions gorge, mountains, plains. I may have missed something so please share where the four of them mentions swamps.

Ok. Name me another campaign excluding Guandu and Chibi that cost the lives of 30k troops, tens of generals and the most important Yi gentry in a single campaign. Yiling was one of the most decisive losses in 3k era. He choked.


Two parts to this

1) I agreed it was devastating defeat so not sure why you want me to agree it was devastating defeat

2) Your then saying he choked without providing reason why he choked. A devastating defeat can happen for many many reasons of course, you have yet to tell me why this one was down to choking.

Sounds like alarmed, nervous, overreact, agitated, hysterical, worked up.


Worked up yes, maybe agitated. Alarmed (at their commander getting men killed rather then Liu Bei) I would also agree. I would add frustrated. Nothing pointing to panic. Hotheaded I would agree with, mutinous perhaps, not panic

For spywork providing 'detailed information'( according to you), I have provided Hua Xin vs Wang Lang/ Yu Fan and Fu Jia petition and Zhuge Ke actions.

For observing enemies actions and taking advantage of weakness, I have used Tian Feng advising Yuan Shao.
[/quote]

I have asked for spywork of such detail that predictions of timing with far off camapigns. I'm not claiming that good spywork didn't exist (I don't agree with all the examples you gave but I agree with the general point there was good spies)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Tue May 08, 2018 3:30 am

I have a question about Jiang Wei. I read that the Wei generals felt as if Jiang Wei was going to defect to Shu.When he left the city they locked him out. Having no where to go he joined Shu. What exactly did Jiang Wei say that made them feel as if he was going to defect? Secondly why would a general defect from a stronger force to a weaker one? Seems more like the generals may not have liked Jiang, but I am not sure of the situation so if anyone could elaborate that'd be great :D.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue May 08, 2018 7:56 am

From Jiang Wei's SGZ translation
In the sixth year of Jian Xing [CE 228], the Prime Minister Zhuge Liang led his army to Qishan. At that time, the Governor of Tian Shui had gone on a tour of inspection; Jiang Wei as well as the Gong Cao, Liang Xu, the Zhu Pu, Yin Shang, and the Zhu Ji, Liang Qian etc. were in his suite. Hearing that the Shu army was about to arrive, and that the various counties of Tian Shui had revolted and joined the Shu, the Governor became suspicious that Jiang Wei and others would become disloyal. So that night he fled to Shang Bang. When they saw that the Governor had gone, Jiang Wei and his men went after him, but they came too late to the city gate of Shang Bang, which was already closed. Not being admitted, Jiang Wei and his men returned to Ji, which would not admit them either. In the end, Jiang Wei and his men all came to Zhuge Liang. At that time, Ma Su had been defeated at Jieting so Zhuge Liang returned, taking with him more than a thousand households of the Xi county as well as Jiang Wei and his men. It was thus that Jiang Wei lost his mother.

[Yu Huan's] Wei Lue says: Ma Zun, the Governor of Tian Shui, leading Jiang Wei and various other subordinate officers, was in the company of Guo Huai, the Ci Shi (Governor) of Yongzhou on his way from the west to Lo Men on a tour of inspection. Hearing that Zhuge Liang had already reached Qishan, Guo Huai looked at Ma Zun and said, "This is not going to turn out well". He then led him to the east and returned to Shang Bang. Remembering that Ji county, the residence-city of his prefecture, was to the west, and fearing that the under-officials and people were inclined to be rebellious, Ma Zun followed Guo Huai and went. At that time, Jiang Wei said to Ma Zun, "Your Excellency ought to return to Ji county." Ma Zun said to Jiang Wei and the others, "You may all return. The rebels are indeed everywhere; let us scatter." Jiang Wei could do nothing with Ma Zun. But, his home being at Ji, he finally returned to Ji together with the under-officials of Tian Shui, such as Shangguan Zi Xiu and others. In Ji, the under-officials and the people were glad to see Jiang Wei and the others back. They then forced them to see Zhuge Liang. Being compelled, the two men came together to Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang was greatly pleased to see them and sent his subordinates to summon the people of Ji. At that time, the vanguard of Zhuge Liang was defeated by Zhang He and Fei Yu, etc., so that he retreated bringing with him Jiang Wei and others. Thus Jiang Wei could not return and finally entered Shu. The various Wei troops attacked Ji county and captured Jiang Wei's mother, wife, and children. But because Jiang Wei had not gone voluntarily, they did not kill the members of his family, but only imprisoned them to make him return. This account seems to be different to that given in SGZ.


And just for comedies sake, several appraisals that speak on Jiang Wei's defections. Two are very opinionated.

Xi Zheng Zhu Lun commenting on Jiang Wei: Jiang Boyue had the burden of both a grand commander and as well as a minister. The house he lived in was very simple. He did not have much money. Though he had many concubines, they were all frugal. He did not arrange any music or entertainment. He was also frugal with the food he ate, the clothes he wore, the transportation he took, etc. After being paid his salary, he would have nothing left afterwards. But he was not corrupt, greedy, or lavish and did not restrain himself in order to give himself a good name. Thus he led a very simple and meagre life. The common people commented that he only looked up to those above while stepping on those below him. However, he may not have been as the people described and their views are inaccurate. For someone like Jiang Wei who dedicated himself to study and who led a very frugal and simple life, he should be set as an example for others to follow.

Sun Sheng says: I do not agree with this commentary of Xi Shi! A gentleman should be conscious and careful when he is above others. There is nothing exceptional about him being filial and loyal since any person in that position should be. He was originally a servant of Wei but later went to Shu. Such a thing shows that he did it to gain benefits and hence cannot be considered by loyal. Since he was very frugal to others like his relatives, etc. this cannot be considered filial. To fight his original kingdom, this cannot be considered to be righteous. After he was defeated and surrounded [by the Shu troops], he did not commit suicide, thus he cannot be considered honourable. Achieving no merits, the people were put through a tough time by him. Raised to such a high position of authority, his enemies were still out about, thus this cannot be considered bravery. Of the five attributes of loyalty, filial piety, honour, righteousness, and bravery, Jiang Wei possesses none of them. He is a traitor of Wei and the shameless face of a dying State. His external disposition of being a great general, I have grave doubts about. While he likes to study, he is prone to being arrogant while not have any real knowledge.

Your servant Pei Songzhi believes Xi Zheng's commentary on Jiang Wei can only be taken at face value but in reality, it is not an accurate reflection. His good attributes were that he loved to study and was very frugal in life. The books Ben Zhuan and Wei Lue both say that Jiang Wei had no rebellious thoughts when he surrendered to Shu. Sun Sheng's harsh commentary was only valid on the point of filial piety when Jiang Wei left his mother. But his other criticisms are considered excessive and inaccurate. Thus both commentaries tend to deviate from the truth.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Tue May 08, 2018 10:34 am

When is Cao Pi first noted in history? Was he ever present in any campaigns before taking Zhen Ji as his wife after Guan Du?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue May 08, 2018 10:43 am

This is a great biography written about Cao Pi by one of our members - capnnerefir.

He has a few paragraphs on Cao Pi's childhood but this section is what I think you're looking for:

Due to the dangers of the time, Cao Cao often brought his young son along on his various military campaigns. This nearly cost Cao Pi his life when he was 10 years old. In 197, Cao Cao led his army to Jing province, where he received the surrender of the warlord Zhang Xiu. However, Zhang Xiu’s intentions were false and he suddenly attacked Cao Cao’s camp in the night. Cao Pi fled on horseback and barely escaped.[18] Others were not so lucky. Cao Cao’s general Dian Wei died attempting to hold back Zhang Xiu’s army almost single-handedly[19] Cao Pi’s older brother, Cao Ang, was also killed along with cousin, Cao Anmin.[20]

On September 13 of 204, Cao Cao captured the city of Ye in Ji province.[21] Not long afterwards, he made the city his personal base and moved his family there. Upon his arrival in Ye, Cao Pi met Lady Zhen, the estranged wife of Yuan Xi, and the two married soon afterwards.[22] Their son Cao Rui was born the next year[23], and Lady Zhen also gave birth to a daughter, the Princess of Dongxiang.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Wed May 09, 2018 2:07 am

That's exactly what I was looking for thanks. I had no idea he was involved in the Wan Castle escape.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Wed May 09, 2018 2:18 am

I have one more question.

Does anyone know any three kingdoms era generals or advisors who's tombs or bodies have been discovered by archeologist? There is a lot of confusion with the Cao Cao one as some believe it belongs to Cao Yu, and Cao Huan, but which is the popular opinion on that? I also know of Cao Xiu's tomb.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed May 09, 2018 2:46 am

Off the top of my head I recall them finding Cao Xiu, Sun Xiu, Zhu Ran, Cao Huan and archaeologists say they've found Cao Cao but I am always skeptical of that. It seems like every 10 years they manage to find Cao Cao's tomb.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Wed May 09, 2018 8:24 am

Thanks. Yeah I was always confused on the tomb that many believed belonged to Cao Cao or Cao Huan. I agree that Cao Huan is who resides there.
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