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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:39 pm
by DaoLunOfShiji
Han wrote:
Liu Bei was a peasant so it was likely he did not read the military texts of Ancient China. .


Just throwing this in here, Liu Bei was a student of one of the Han's finest scholars in Lu Zhi, as was Gongsun Zan. I have no doubt in my mind that Liu Bei was either involved in reading military texts at this time, or in the span of time between then and his forming of his band.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:28 am
by greencactaur
Hmm I suppose Cao Pi's knowledge of the encampment is questionable. I just find it surprising that Lu Xun was given such a big role despite the fact (as far as I'm aware) he did not possess any actual experience. I suppose the mindset was Sun Quan couldn't compete with Liu Bei and probably saw it as his "Final" hope.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:43 am
by Sun Fin
Lu Xun had operated as a sub-commander under Lu Meng during the Jing invasion. He did have some experience.

I also agree with DaoLun, Liu Bei's study under Lu Zhi would have no doubt centred around the classics of which The Art of War and one.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am
by Dong Zhou
Han wrote:
How would Cao Pi have even seen how Liu Bei's camps were set up? Did he have spies run around drawing pictures of the camps of a battle that his faction wasn't a part of? Doesn't seem likely that Cao Pi would have such up to date information on a battle so far away.


Thats highly likely. Spies were commonplace throughout the entirety of the Civil War. Furthermore, it was possible that Sun Quan did gave Cao Pi up to date information considering that he was a Wei vassal then.

There are experienced generals in Wu's army (less so in Shu) and the only guy who spots it is Lu Xun, not even Liu Bei saw the danger. Yet Cao Pi, who is miles and miles and miles off, whose miliatry skills were not comparable to either man (or many in his Wei court, who fail to spot this) spots it?

I think it more likely Wei was trying to big up Cao Pi there. I think it is entirely possible he said something like Liu Bei has been bogged down so will lose but a spot on analysis with amazing timing?


Cao Pi being an inferior general to the both of them doesnt mean he was a bad military strategist. Liu Bei was a peasant so it was likely he did not read the military texts of Ancient China. It was highly possible that those in Wei court did notice it but it wasnt recorded.

Why not? His spies may have inform him on how Liu Bei set up his camps and then Pi himself arrived at that conclusion. Just because other people didnt arrive at that conclusion[ or it was unrecorded] doesnt mean Pi definitely could not.


Source on 3kingdom spies proving such accurate and timely information on miliatry formations of other armies?

Cao Pi wasn't a good miliatry strategist either. As others have said, Liu Bei was very well educated, add that he had shown an ability with tactics and strategy that Cao Pi never did and had decades of expirence. I doubt Wei figures had the information to make such a prediction if Wu's figures didn't

greencactaur wrote:Hmm I suppose Cao Pi's knowledge of the encampment is questionable. I just find it surprising that Lu Xun was given such a big role despite the fact (as far as I'm aware) he did not possess any actual experience. I suppose the mindset was Sun Quan couldn't compete with Liu Bei and probably saw it as his "Final" hope.


Lu Xun had risen through the ranks fighting bandits and Shanyue, he had played a key role in invasion of Jing. He lacked a certain name recognition at the time but he did have the expirence

Sun Quan was not particularly worried about Liu Bei's invasion. He had the resources to handle Liu Bei, plenty of experienced miliatry commanders if Lu Xun failed and was on the defence so could wait things out.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:21 pm
by Sun Fin
How far away was Luoyang from Zhang Jue's headquarters in Ji province and how long would it take to travel there?

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:26 pm
by Lord_Cao_Cao
Well, modern-day Luoyang and Guangzong (at least that's where Zhang Jue died) seem to be around 430km apart from each other. Google Maps says, today you'd need around 86 hours or 3 1/2 days on foot (non-stop) to get there. Not sure how helpful that is with regard to ancient China. :lol:

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm
by DaoLunOfShiji
So his head took an 86 hour long parade? Fun! :D

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:48 pm
by Lord_Cao_Cao
I guess his head was delivered on horseback, so it might have taken shorter than that. :mrgreen:

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:33 pm
by Han
Source on 3kingdom spies proving such accurate and timely information on miliatry formations of other armies?

Cao Pi wasn't a good miliatry strategist either. As others have said, Liu Bei was very well educated, add that he had shown an ability with tactics and strategy that Cao Pi never did and had decades of expirence. I doubt Wei figures had the information to make such a prediction if Wu's figures didn't


The purpose of spies is to know how deployment of army works. Wei spies would definitely be able to record where Liu Bei encamped his army and somehow pass the information to Cao Pi. The details did not need to be exact. But just how long the camps were and where the camps were placed would be pretty easy.

He was pretty decent. His campaigns were never massive failures. In fact you dont have to be a good strategist to recite something from the Art of War. Fair enough, but Liu Bei never had experience fighting in forested areas AFAIK. Liu Bei also never had Cao Cao as his father... Well, Wu figures seem to be frustrated and were on a losing streak. Emotions were running high which could cloud their judgement. Cao Pi enjoyed the benefit of judging the situation comfortably based off his spies reports on Liu Bei deployment. This would allow him to come to a quicker and better conclusion in comparison to others.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:29 am
by Dong Zhou
Han wrote:
The purpose of spies is to know how deployment of army works. Wei spies would definitely be able to record where Liu Bei encamped his army and somehow pass the information to Cao Pi. The details did not need to be exact. But just how long the camps were and where the camps were placed would be pretty easy.

He was pretty decent. His campaigns were never massive failures. In fact you dont have to be a good strategist to recite something from the Art of War. Fair enough, but Liu Bei never had experience fighting in forested areas AFAIK. Liu Bei also never had Cao Cao as his father... Well, Wu figures seem to be frustrated and were on a losing streak. Emotions were running high which could cloud their judgement. Cao Pi enjoyed the benefit of judging the situation comfortably based off his spies reports on Liu Bei deployment. This would allow him to come to a quicker and better conclusion in comparison to others.


I get the theory but source on such accurate information of an an army in a way one isn't involved in happening in 3 kingdoms?

You rate him more highly then I do then. It's true ability to recite doesn't require ability but being able to actually apply it does, Pi never showed that real ability to turn reading it into successful implementation whereas Liu Bei did.

Cao Pi didn't inherit his father's miliatry skill just like Liu Bei's heir didn't. These experienced generals who shown more strategy then Cao Pi all lost their heads? While nobody in Wei other then Pi noticed? Sorry, don't buy it