Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:58 pm

Holy... thank you very much Dong! I truly appreciate your help!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:26 am

If someone recommended an officer to service, but the recommended officer messed up significantly, would both the recommended officer + the one who recommended them be punished? :shock:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:36 am

greencactaur wrote:If someone recommended an officer to service, but the recommended officer messed up significantly, would both the recommended officer + the one who recommended them be punished? :shock:


Rarely but it did happen if was treason. Zhong Yao was sacked for protégée Wei Feng's revolt, Hao Pu killed himself after he backed false defector Yin Fan. One could get away with a bad appointment or two in a career I imagine but if you had a habit of bad picks, you were not going to go far anyway
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:39 pm

Is it true that Xun Yu and Xun You descendants argued with one another?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Kushan Embassador » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Welcome Kushan Embassador

The Han was struggling to hold Liang by the 180's, it's expansion days were done and simply trying to maintain areas like Liang was increasingly difficult so I'm not sure they focused muc/at all on anything beyond that province. As far as I know Dong and Huangfu Song were the westernmost commanders during the dying days and weren't really replaced when Dong seized the capital, Liang was left in the local warlord hands of figures like Han Sui and Ma Teng.


Thanks for the welcoming and the answer!

Besides I have been searching for myself and I found this article in wikipedia about the "Liang Rebellion 184-189", which speaks precisely about the struggle of the Han dynasty to mantain his control overt these territories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liang_Province_rebellion

And speaking about wikipedia, I found that in the article about the kingdom of Shu Han there is a reference about that many troops and nobles from that kingdom fled to the Sassanid Persia after its fall at hands of Wei in 263, being its only source a book called: HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE CLASSICAL WORLD 500 BC AD 600, by John Haywood.

"Shu Han" wikipedia's article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shu_Han#cite_note-2

Besides I found another reference to that refugees in this book: https://books.google.es/books?id=69EbKf ... ia&f=false

Do you know if exists some evidence in the Ancient Chinese sources about these refugees? or is somekind of theory without historical base?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:46 pm

Han wrote:Is it true that Xun Yu and Xun You descendants argued with one another?


Not that I can think of/know about but this might be Jin related? I know Xun Yu's sons argued or rather Xun Can vs rest of his family argued

Do you have any details?

Kushan Embassador wrote:Do you know if exists some evidence in the Ancient Chinese sources about these refugees? or is somekind of theory without historical base?


It isn't in the ZZTJ and I haven't seen it in any of the SGZ I have read or mentioned in things like Farmer's book on Qiao Zhou. I certainly can't think of a noted name that was deem to have fled.

Even as a theory, I am sceptical about it. The Chinese did not have a good view of outside China, add that figures of Yi could have very strong attachments to Yi itself, it would have to be something major to make them flee to (in their eyes) barbarian lands let alone as far as Persia. Wei's invasion, given Wei was part of China and the efforts Wei put in very quickly to win people over, does not seem so desperate a thing to make them flee. Add a smooth transition (bar one night of revolt) of power. Why would they flee?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:34 pm

I think it was an argument on which Xun was better. Xun Yu the Han loyalist or Xun You who supported Cao Wei.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:01 pm

Han wrote:I think it was an argument on which Xun was better. Xun Yu the Han loyalist or Xun You who supported Cao Wei.


That was Xun Can vs his brothers, the children of Xun Yu. In which case, yes that did happen (Xun Can was a bit of provocative sort)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:30 pm

Where may I find the argument?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:11 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Kushan Embassador wrote:Do you know if exists some evidence in the Ancient Chinese sources about these refugees? or is somekind of theory without historical base?


It isn't in the ZZTJ and I haven't seen it in any of the SGZ I have read or mentioned in things like Farmer's book on Qiao Zhou. I certainly can't think of a noted name that was deem to have fled.

Even as a theory, I am sceptical about it. The Chinese did not have a good view of outside China, add that figures of Yi could have very strong attachments to Yi itself, it would have to be something major to make them flee to (in their eyes) barbarian lands let alone as far as Persia. Wei's invasion, given Wei was part of China and the efforts Wei put in very quickly to win people over, does not seem so desperate a thing to make them flee. Add a smooth transition (bar one night of revolt) of power. Why would they flee?

I've seen this claim before as well, but with no source given.

China did have some contact with Persia, but the usual route was through the Hexi corridor (controlled by Wei) and then the Tarim basin.

If you are fleeing from Shu and don't want to go through Wei, getting to Persia seems like a tough task. You'd either have to go through India (but then why not seek exile there) or the Tibetan highlands.
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