Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:22 pm

True true. Thanks again!

Where can I find Liu Shan comments on Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Pang Tong, Xiahou Ba and the fictional 5 tigers. Zhao Yun wikipedia states that these guys received posthumous titles during Liu Shan reign, which was a great honour.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Han wrote:True true. Thanks again!

Where can I find Liu Shan comments on Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Pang Tong, Xiahou Ba and the fictional 5 tigers. Zhao Yun wikipedia states that these guys received posthumous titles during Liu Shan reign, which was a great honour.


This is from the Empiredivided (RIP) Zhao Yun SGZ translation,

During the First Emperor�s time, Fa Zheng was the only one who received a posthumous title. When it came to the Later Emperor, Zhuge Liang, due to his achievements that overshadow the world, Jiang Wan and Fei Yi, because they took responsibility of the country, all received such title. Chen Di is liked by the emperor thus is granted this reward; Xiahou Ba came from faraway therefore he is entitled to this privilege. Therefore when Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong, and Yun all received posthumous title, the people at that all regard this as an honor.

Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan: The Later Emperor�s edict: �Yun served the late emperor and had amazing achievements. When I was young and in danger, I was able to escape due to Yun�s loyalty. Posthumous titles are for contributors, which would include Yun. Chief General Jiang Wei etc. discussed and believed when Yun served the late emperor and made great contributions. He helped manage the kingdom and obeyed the laws, thus his achievements are recordable. The battle of Dangyang showed his unwavering loyalty. A vassal should serve the emperor without the fear of death because the emperor would treat his subjects with manners and give rewards properly. The deceased ones should be remembered while the living ones should be encouraged to forget his own danger. Following the rules of posthumous titles: who is gentle, virtue, and kind should be named Shun; who is can carry out tasks orderly should be named Ping; who is able to put out disordered should be named Ping, thus it is proper to give the title of Marquis of Shun Ping to Yun.� Yun�s son Tong succeeded his father�s title and received rank up to Hu Guan Zhong Lang (5), and commander of the leading army. His second son Guang has the rank of Ya Men Jiang and died on battlefield when he followed Jiang Wei to Ta Zhong.
"Looking at Zhong Hui is like viewing an armory, one sees only spears and lances"
— Pei Kai
Check out this list of historical resources I have.
Check out this list of cited biographies I have written.
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Scholar
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:38 pm

THANKS SO MUCH!!! I was looking everywhere for the source for that for the past hour or so.

But whats with all the diamond question marks? Or is that just me?

And who is Chen Di?

Did Liu Shan gave Pang Tong, Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Chen Zhi, Xiahou Ba, the five tigers their edicts, or was it just Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun?
Last edited by Han on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:44 pm

Meant 3kfrontier (RIP)* The weird question mark symbols are ' and ", they just 'degrade' over time it seems. Most of them on 3kfrontier and Empiredivided are that way.

As for Chen Di, it may be a mistranslated of Chen Dao. He was Marqius of Tinghou, but I am not certain if it was posthumous like Zhao Yun's seems to be.
"Looking at Zhong Hui is like viewing an armory, one sees only spears and lances"
— Pei Kai
Check out this list of historical resources I have.
Check out this list of cited biographies I have written.
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Scholar
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:46 pm

Chen Dao? Or what about Chen Zhi?

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Chen-Zhi

According to Guan Yu wikipedia

The peerage of marquis was divided into three grades during the Han dynasty and Three Kingdoms period. These are, in ascending order of prestige, tinghou (亭侯; village marquis), xianghou (郷侯; district marquis) and xianhou (縣侯; county marquis). Guan Yu's was the first.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:48 pm

Good catch, it may be Chen Zhi as he was certainly given a Marquis by Liu Shan. Hilariously named 'Loyal Marquis'.
"Looking at Zhong Hui is like viewing an armory, one sees only spears and lances"
— Pei Kai
Check out this list of historical resources I have.
Check out this list of cited biographies I have written.
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Scholar
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:55 pm

Yeah, and according to wikipedia,

Chen Dao served under the Shu Han state, founded by Liu Bei, during the Three Kingdoms period. In the early Jianxing era (223–237) of Liu Shan's reign, he was appointed General Who Attacks the West (征西將軍) and Army Protector (護軍), and awarded the title of a village marquis (亭侯). In 226, when the Shu regent Zhuge Liang was preparing to launch a military campaign against Wei (Shu's rival state), he reassigned the general Li Yan to Jiangzhou (江州; in present-day Chongqing) and put him in charge of logistics. Chen Dao was ordered to replace Li Yan at his previous post in Yong'an County (永安縣; present-day Fengjie County, Chongqing) near the border between Shu and its ally state Wu.[4][5][6][7]

The first two sources are SanGuoZhi. The next two are Huayang Guo Zhi.

Did Liu Shan gave Pang Tong, Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Chen Zhi, Xiahou Ba, the five tigers their edicts, or was it just Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun?

The Chronicles of 3k in this website by Achilles Fang only translate Zhuge Liang edict. No other by Shu Han are mentioned. If you did not sourced me Zhao Yun one, I would have even thought it was fake!
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:34 pm

In the Ravages Of Time, Xiahou Dun calls Cao Cao 'Ah Man'. Was this appropriate historically? Would Cao Cao have been fine with this?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:27 am

Han wrote:http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14938

How true is this?

To quote Professor Luo Kai Yu in a compilation of the 25 historical texts, Zhong Hua Shu Ju

Tun Tian could be widely found in many areas under Wei’s control though mainly concentrated in Xing Yang, Luo Yang, Xu Chang, Ru Nan etc. As most of the farmers were rebels initially, there was bound to be some form of resistance in the process of farming. Consequently, the administrators would then be forced to employ brutal methods in governing to maintain the system. Indeed, though tun tian was largely done by the civilians initially, the system of governance remained military in nature. For instance, to prevent the tun tian farmers from attempting to escape. the government implemented the Shi Jia system. (Shi Jia was the name of the "new class of people" in tun tian while shi refers to the male farmers or head of the family) For those Shis who escaped, the wives will be executed while the rest of the family members be slaves for the officials. The daughters of Shis could only be married to Shis

When Cao Cao eradicated Yuan Shao forces and unified the north, he often made use of the chances presented during military expeditions to capture as many civilians as possible. For example, though Zhang Liao failed in his battle against Yuan Shang, he successfully captured Yin An upon retreat and moved the locals back to Wei. Similarly, in his attack of Jingzhou against Liu Biao, Cao Cao also transported large numbers of civilians in Jingzhou back. These civilians, who were forcibly deported, had statuses similar to war captives. (In fact, they were treated as war spoils and were used by generals as proof to claim their rewards.) These people were indeed viewed as highly suitable for tun tian. One such person who experienced the above was Deng Ai. Together with his mother, villagers and extended family, they were despatched from Jingzhou to Runan (some say Xiang Cheng) to partake in tun tian when Cao Cao conquered Jing Zhou. He was in fact only twelve to thirteen when he partook in such laborious activities.


So apparently, Jiuyangda believed that its 'pretty much' right. Although it wasnt really slavery like the link states.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:51 pm

What made Xiahou Dun and Cao Cao so close? Did they grow up together and were close from the start or did they get closer over time as Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan aligned their clan with his?
Rezko_Kanashi
Apprentice
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 6:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved