Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:59 pm

Interesting discussion on Xun Yu here.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23996
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:41 pm

I believe it is likely suicide as well. However, it’s worth remembering that even today people become sick and die from stress. Back then when there was little understanding of medicine, it may very well appear that someone who was in great grief died from it when in reality it had caused a heart attack or such.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:59 pm

It's a unique conversation we find ourselves in when we have a clear example of each side of the spectrum.
-Xun Can was grief stricken after the death of his Lady Cao, and passed away not long after.
-Cao Zhi's SGZ notes he fell into a deep depression (grief), fell ill and died.
-Then there is the hazy group of Xiahou Shang, Lu Xun and Xun Yu.
-Then there's Han Fu, who Chen Shou specifically states slit his own wrists and died in a bathroom.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:12 pm

I'm firmly on the side of Xun Yu killing himself, with Lu Xun I get the impression it was a 60 year old man strained by Sun Quan's constant rebukes (or just really unfortunate timing) rather then suicide and that there isn't the kind of evidence that supports Xun Yu's forced suicide (for example) with Lu Xun.

In terms of "died of grief" it is complicated, it is certainly a codeword for suicide and when trying to explain "actually that isn't proof of natural causes but instead..." one can inadvertently forget to make clear not all dies of grief are suicide. An Empress losing favour and suddenly dying of grief could happen given the shock to the system but just assume suicide or would have been suicide. With males, look at circumstance and what else is being said in annotations or from those that study the era
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:21 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:So I looked this up a bit more. I got my above rudely-unsourced information from my copy of the Early Chinese Religion series (Lagerwey and Kalinowski). I've read a bit deeper.

In the "Latter Han Religious Mass Movements and The Early Daoist Church" chapter (starting page 1061 in vol. 2):

Before the 4th-century Hou Hanji and the 5th-century Hou Hanshu, a 3rd-century source, of which only quotations survive, calls Zhang’s movement the Way of Great Peace, taiping dao 太平道. Indeed, an occurrence in the Hou Hanshu, unsupported elsewhere and rather ambiguous, states that “Zhang Jue had many of these Great Peace writings.” These “divine writings” 神書 were said to have been found by one Gan Ji 干吉, who transmitted them to his pupil Gong Chong 宮崇 from Langya 琅玡, who in turn submitted them unsuccessfully to the throne under Emperor Shun’s 順帝 rule (126–44). But establishing a possible historical and literary relationship between that text, now lost, and the Taiping jing 太平經 in the Ming Daoist canon remains highly hypothetical. The military titles chosen by the Zhang brothers in 184 (“general of the Lord of Heaven,” tiangong jiangjun 天公將軍, “of Earth,” digong jiangjun 地公將軍, and “of Man,” rengong jiangjun 人公將軍) may seem reminiscent of the Taiping jing’s ideology, which is centered around the heaven-earth-man triad, but the triad already had a long history by that time and belonged to the Chinese archive, in the Foucauldian sense of the word, rather than to a specific tradition.

It seems that the name "taiping dao" (Way of Great Peace) is from a lost 3rd-century source that predates the Hou Hanshu, and that the latter only briefly mentions the name.

The existing quotations from the 3rd-century source alluded to by the paragraph are: 1. in the Sanguozhi, specifically Wei chapter 8.264; 2. in the Hou Hanshu: the above-quoted line, 75.2436; and 3. in Yu Huan's Dianlüe, specifically the Essentials of the Wei.

In Pei Songzhi's commentary of the Sanguozhi biography of Zhang Lu, the latter Dianlüe usage is referenced:

During the Guanghe reign period (178–84), there was in the east Zhang Jue and, in the Hanzhong area (northern Sichuan), Zhang Xiu. Luo Yao taught the people a method for meditating on one’s faults, while Zhang Jue set up the Way of great peace and Zhang Xiu that of the five bushels of rice. The masters of great peace carried a staff with nine sections and used incantations and talismans, teaching the sick to kowtow and meditate on their sins, and then giving them talismanic water to drink.

I'm tempted to assume that the source closest to the event is the most correct. Yet, as the first quote from Early Chinese Religion mentions above, the "Great Peace" scriptures existed before Zhang Jue's usage. (This is outlined at length in the book series, so I won't spend too much time on it due to the sheer volume of information. However, this probably isn't much of a surprise considering Zhang Jue himself was given the revealed text.) It may be that the 3rd-century source inaccurately described the movement with the existing term, Taiping dao; as the book goes on to explain:

Interestingly, about the same period, the earliest firmly dated text of the Way of the Heavenly Master (tianshi dao 天師道) uses the variant expression taiping zhi dao 太平之道 in reference not to Zhang Jue’s historical movement but to the revelations bestowed by “the Dao” upon Gan Ji—not during the 2nd century AD but at the end of the Zhou era! Gan Ji was already becoming a figure of Daoist hagiography, also known as Lord Gan 干君 in Daoist sources. Though there probably was a historical Gan Ji who actually lived toward the end of the Latter Han dynasty, the connection of this character with the tradition of Great Peace and his role as an intercessor in the revelation of Great Peace texts are probably a later Daoist invention.

Elsewhere in this book, they mention the "way of good" that Fornadan brought up:

The leaders of the Yellow Turbans, Zhang Jue 張角 and his two brothers Zhang Liang 梁 (or 良) and Bao 寶, appear primarily in official records as renowned, self-proclaimed “great physicians” (dayi 大醫), i.e., charlatans who for more than ten years—their popular success feeding on the domestic crisis of the 170s—had “served the way of good actions” 事善道, or even “converted” 教化 the world to the “way of good actions.”

The book cites Hou Hanji 24.473–78 for this paragraph.

I don't have the context of the Hanji, but from this writeup, it reads to me more as a mission statement: i.e. the Way of Peace converts the world to the way of good actions. I'd be curious to know how the Hanji or Hanshu use this term "Good"!

I guess my takeaway from this is: Zhang Jue did use the taiping jing (The Scriptures of Great Peace); the term taiping dao (Way of Great Peace) is briefly mentioned in ancient sources but only as references to an even earlier now-lost source. Whether the movement was actually called the Way of Great Peace accordingly to the scriptures seems to be uncertain. Given the name of the scriptures, though, I’d consider “Way of Great Peace” much more likely than “Way of Good”.

Interestingly, in the Hou Hanji (24.476), Hou Hanshu (78.2534-35), and the Zizhi tongjian (58.1864,1867–68), when the Emperor is questioning the movement, they call it merely the huangjin dao, “the Way of the Yellow Turbans". :lol:

It may also be worth noting that this Early Chinese Religion book series refers to the movement as "Taiping Daoism" or more simply "Taiping" in other areas; though this term doesn't appear in any quotations of ancient writings.

tl;dr I’m unsure what the Yellow Turbans were actually called. :P


My attempt at translation:

1st Year of Zhongping [31 January 184 – 17 February 185]
Spring, 1st Month [31 January – 28 February 184]: Zhang Jue of Julu planned rebellion. Earlier, Jue and his younger brothers Liang良 and Bao called themselves Great Doctors, serving the Way of the Good. Those sick or ill each time knelt and bowed, and admitted their faults. Those sick increasingly turned to lie about the glory to each other. After more than ten years, the disciples numbered a hundred thousand people, spreading across Under Heaven. They set up 36 wards, each having a master. At the time of the 5th day of the 3rd month, they were to raise troops, and at same time come out together. Jue's disciple, Tang Ke of Jiyin, sent up a letter to inform on Jue. The Son of Heaven dispatched envoys to arrest Jue. Jue and others knew the affair was already revealed, and therefore from dawn to night organized the wards, with urgent orders to raise troops.

2nd Month [29 February – 29 March]: Jue and others raised troops, from time to time the villages assembled several tens of hundred rows, the greater were more than ten thousand people, the lesser were six or seven thousand people. The provinces and commanderies hurried and flurried to lose possession. The 2 000 shi and the Senior Clerks all abandoned the cites to escape and flee. The Imperial Capital trembled. Jue's faction all attached yellow head-cloth, because of this Under Heaven called them the “Yellow Head-cloth Traitors”.

中平元年
春正月,鉅鹿人張角謀反。
初,角弟良,弟寶自稱大醫,事善道,疾病者輒跪拜首過,病者頗愈,轉相誑耀。十餘年間,弟子數十萬人,周遍天下,置三十六坊,各有所主。期三月五日起兵,同時俱發。角弟子濟陰人唐客上書告角,天子遣使者捕角。角等知事已露,因晨夜敕諸坊,促令起兵。
二月,角等皆舉兵,往往屯聚數十百輩,大者萬餘人,小者六七千人。州郡倉卒失據,二千石長吏皆棄城遁走,京師振動。角黨皆著黃巾,故天下號曰「黃巾賊」。
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:17 am

Agreed.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:11 pm

Is it true that Liu Bei pillaged/plundered during his early days?

What source do we have for that?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:14 pm

Could you define early days?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:43 pm

Fleeing to Qing province, Liu Bei recovered some of his scattered forces, then joined Yuan Tan and was welcomed by Yuan Shao. He was sent back to Runan to support the bandit Liu Pi in raiding about Xu city, but was again defeated and driven back to Yuan Shao.


From Biographical Dictionary of the Later Han to Three Kingdoms by Rafe de Crespigny. So he did raid during his time in Runan. It also notes a bit further on he joined up with another bandit, one can assume raiding happened then.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:04 pm

I know about the Runan one. Im referring to before joining Tao Qian days. Aka from Yellow Turban to the Northen Yuan Shao Alliance against the Southern HuaiNan Yuan Shu Alliance days.

https://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/97228936927

If possible, Id like more elaboration on this part:

But I guess that Liu Bei wasn’t all that interested in being a soldier in the traditional sense. It’s unclear when Liu Bei’s education under Lu Zhi stopped, but it was probably in 177, since Lu Zhi was commissioned to take part in a massive academic project that year and probably wouldn’t have had time to teach Liu Bei anymore. He and, after receiving some money from some merchants named Zhang Shiping and and Su Shuang (and I’m not entirely convinced they gave it willingly), he started to recruit what is generously called a “volunteer army” but would more accurately be called a mercenary band. There were often problems with the tribes along the borders in You, and it would not be difficult for Liu Bei to find some work for his band in the north.

Liu Bei recruited from among his friends in Zhuo; most notably Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Jian Yong. Guan Yu was originally from elsewhere and had come to Zhuo fleeing the law. Zhang Fei was a Zhuo native who treated Guan Yu like his own elder brother. It seems obvious why mercenary life would appeal to the two of them. Jian Yong was simply Liu Bei’s childhood friend who thought it best to support him.
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