Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Fornadan wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.

According to the Houhanji, Zhang Jue called his movement the "Way of Good" 善道.

I hadn't heard that before. :shock:

Googling for Zhang Jue and the "Way of Good" doesn't turn up much for me. Do you happen to have the sentence/paragraph for context?

Also does it say what they called the followers?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:49 pm

So I looked this up a bit more. I got my above rudely-unsourced information from my copy of the Early Chinese Religion series (Lagerwey and Kalinowski). I've read a bit deeper.

In the "Latter Han Religious Mass Movements and The Early Daoist Church" chapter (starting page 1061 in vol. 2):

Before the 4th-century Hou Hanji and the 5th-century Hou Hanshu, a 3rd-century source, of which only quotations survive, calls Zhang’s movement the Way of Great Peace, taiping dao 太平道. Indeed, an occurrence in the Hou Hanshu, unsupported elsewhere and rather ambiguous, states that “Zhang Jue had many of these Great Peace writings.” These “divine writings” 神書 were said to have been found by one Gan Ji 干吉, who transmitted them to his pupil Gong Chong 宮崇 from Langya 琅玡, who in turn submitted them unsuccessfully to the throne under Emperor Shun’s 順帝 rule (126–44). But establishing a possible historical and literary relationship between that text, now lost, and the Taiping jing 太平經 in the Ming Daoist canon remains highly hypothetical. The military titles chosen by the Zhang brothers in 184 (“general of the Lord of Heaven,” tiangong jiangjun 天公將軍, “of Earth,” digong jiangjun 地公將軍, and “of Man,” rengong jiangjun 人公將軍) may seem reminiscent of the Taiping jing’s ideology, which is centered around the heaven-earth-man triad, but the triad already had a long history by that time and belonged to the Chinese archive, in the Foucauldian sense of the word, rather than to a specific tradition.

It seems that the name "taiping dao" (Way of Great Peace) is from a lost 3rd-century source that predates the Hou Hanshu, and that the latter only briefly mentions the name.

The existing quotations from the 3rd-century source alluded to by the paragraph are: 1. in the Sanguozhi, specifically Wei chapter 8.264; 2. in the Hou Hanshu: the above-quoted line, 75.2436; and 3. in Yu Huan's Dianlüe, specifically the Essentials of the Wei.

In Pei Songzhi's commentary of the Sanguozhi biography of Zhang Lu, the latter Dianlüe usage is referenced:

During the Guanghe reign period (178–84), there was in the east Zhang Jue and, in the Hanzhong area (northern Sichuan), Zhang Xiu. Luo Yao taught the people a method for meditating on one’s faults, while Zhang Jue set up the Way of great peace and Zhang Xiu that of the five bushels of rice. The masters of great peace carried a staff with nine sections and used incantations and talismans, teaching the sick to kowtow and meditate on their sins, and then giving them talismanic water to drink.

I'm tempted to assume that the source closest to the event is the most correct. Yet, as the first quote from Early Chinese Religion mentions above, the "Great Peace" scriptures existed before Zhang Jue's usage. (This is outlined at length in the book series, so I won't spend too much time on it due to the sheer volume of information. However, this probably isn't much of a surprise considering Zhang Jue himself was given the revealed text.) It may be that the 3rd-century source inaccurately described the movement with the existing term, Taiping dao; as the book goes on to explain:

Interestingly, about the same period, the earliest firmly dated text of the Way of the Heavenly Master (tianshi dao 天師道) uses the variant expression taiping zhi dao 太平之道 in reference not to Zhang Jue’s historical movement but to the revelations bestowed by “the Dao” upon Gan Ji—not during the 2nd century AD but at the end of the Zhou era! Gan Ji was already becoming a figure of Daoist hagiography, also known as Lord Gan 干君 in Daoist sources. Though there probably was a historical Gan Ji who actually lived toward the end of the Latter Han dynasty, the connection of this character with the tradition of Great Peace and his role as an intercessor in the revelation of Great Peace texts are probably a later Daoist invention.

Elsewhere in this book, they mention the "way of good" that Fornadan brought up:

The leaders of the Yellow Turbans, Zhang Jue 張角 and his two brothers Zhang Liang 梁 (or 良) and Bao 寶, appear primarily in official records as renowned, self-proclaimed “great physicians” (dayi 大醫), i.e., charlatans who for more than ten years—their popular success feeding on the domestic crisis of the 170s—had “served the way of good actions” 事善道, or even “converted” 教化 the world to the “way of good actions.”

The book cites Hou Hanji 24.473–78 for this paragraph.

I don't have the context of the Hanji, but from this writeup, it reads to me more as a mission statement: i.e. the Way of Peace converts the world to the way of good actions. I'd be curious to know how the Hanji or Hanshu use this term "Good"!

I guess my takeaway from this is: Zhang Jue did use the taiping jing (The Scriptures of Great Peace); the term taiping dao (Way of Great Peace) is briefly mentioned in ancient sources but only as references to an even earlier now-lost source. Whether the movement was actually called the Way of Great Peace accordingly to the scriptures seems to be uncertain. Given the name of the scriptures, though, I’d consider “Way of Great Peace” much more likely than “Way of Good”.

Interestingly, in the Hou Hanji (24.476), Hou Hanshu (78.2534-35), and the Zizhi tongjian (58.1864,1867–68), when the Emperor is questioning the movement, they call it merely the huangjin dao, “the Way of the Yellow Turbans". :lol:

It may also be worth noting that this Early Chinese Religion book series refers to the movement as "Taiping Daoism" or more simply "Taiping" in other areas; though this term doesn't appear in any quotations of ancient writings.

tl;dr I’m unsure what the Yellow Turbans were actually called. :P
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:02 am

2) ZZTJ has
Zhuge Liang feared that Liu Feng, a man of strong will and character, might not remain tractable after the death of his adoptive father, so he now advised the King of Hanzhong to do away with him. Thereupon Liu Feng was ordered to commit suicide.


I do wonder if even a less "strong will" figure might have been considered too risky for the security of Shu given age and miliatry expirence.


Thanks for the source!

3) That's fair, I may be reading too much into things.

The other quote I was thinking of is
"When his lordship was at Gongan," replied Zhuge Liang, "in the north he faced the strength of Cao Cao, in the east he shrank from the oppression of Sun Quan, while near at home he feared the Lady Sun would cause trouble in his own house.46 Through the aid Fa Xiaozhi47 brought him he was able to soar and fly high, so that nothing can hold him back. How can he now restrict and confine Xiaozhi, denying him the few things he asks?"


I see. I still stand by my previous argument though.

5) Same one, he timetravelled :wink: Apparently he has an SGZ translated ] here but where I had seen it mentioned pre that sgz, it tended to be in a more... hostile version for Wei Yan.


Thanks. That Yan stuff is pretty funny lmfao.

8) Just don't become a pollster!

Treason and corruption off the top of my head.


Lmao.

This was what I was referring to:

4. Then he memorialized the Emperor on Cao Shuang’s crimes: “When I returned from Liaodong some time ago, the late Emperor ordered Your Majesty, the Prince of Qin, and myself to mount the imperial couch, and holding my arm he expressed his deep concern in behalf of his successor. I said, ‘Both Cao Cao and Cao Pi entrusted me with their respective successors, as Your Majesty witnessed in person. There shall be no cause for worry: should anything go amiss, I will observe your command though I die.’ [This is something the huang-men-ling Dong Ji (董箕) and the cairen (Accomplished Ladies) who attended the sickbed all heard.] Now, the da jiangjun Cao Shuang has disobeyed the testamentary charge and trampled down the laws of the land. Within his home he emulates the imperial dignity, without he abuses power. He has destroyed the barracks and taken possession of the entire palace bodyguard, appointed his intimates to various important offices and replaced the palace guards with his own men. He has fostered corruption, daily indulging in his wantonness. Thus is his conduct outside the palace. Then, he has appointed as dujiang the huang-men Zhang Dang (張當), who monopolizes important connections. He spies on Your Majesty’s August Person, on the lookout to usurp the throne. He brings estrangement between the two palaces (i.e., the Emperor and the Empress Dowager), wounding the relationships of the blood. The empire is disturbed and the people sense danger. Your Majesty sits on the throne as a mere tolerated guest; how long can you remain in peace? This is not what the late Emperor intended when he ordered Your Majesty and me to mount the imperial couch.

Old and decrepit though I am, I dare not forget his words. Of old, Zhao Gao reveled in his desires and the Qin perished thereby; after the Lu and Huo were extirpated in good time, the lineage of the Han was perpetuated. This is a great warning for Your Majesty, and one which obliges me to act accordingly. The taiyu Jiang Ji, the shang-shu-ling Sima Fu, and others all believe that Cao Shuang has a heart which knows no Sovereign, and that he and his younger brothers therefore should not command the imperial bodyguards. I have memorialized the Yongning Palace, and the Empress Dowager has commanded me to act as I proposed in my memorial. Thereupon I ordered the official in charge, as well as the huang-men-ling, that Cao Shuang, Cao Xi, and Cao Xun are relieved of their command of the troops and are to proceed to their fiefs as Lords, and are not to tarry to detain the imperial carriage; should they detain it or themselves linger, they will be tried and punished in accordance with military regulations. Struggling against my ailments, I have led out the army and stationed it on the pontoon bridge over the Luoshui in anticipation of any eventuality.”

4) In my expirence, the cultural Guan Yu image is why the historical Guan Yu (at least partly) gets such a kicking even if they don't mention it

Zhang Liao took part but claims that Zhang Liao is the big credit guy or things like that can't be backed up. Zhang Liao led the forces, it was Guan Yu that managed to get the kill without it being credited to Zhang Liao

In terms of the Liu comparison, I'm ill placed to comment


Which is not fair in my opinion.

Agreed.

Fair enough.

Thanks by the way.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:11 am

Jia Nanfeng, that was a lot of research! Thank you, and Fornadan too! Like you I'm normally inclined to go with the earliest source unless there is a very convincing argument otherwise! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:27 am

Thanks for that Han

Which is not fair in my opinion.


Oh it certainly isn't but sadly it is the case. He is probably the worst hit by novel vs history backlash as Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang and like tend to rebound
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:29 am

But hey. On the bright side, he had a badass beared and is worship by a billion people. :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:15 am

Did Xun Yu/ Lu Xun died from sickness or died from "grief"
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:43 am

Both of their SGZ's are a bit straight forward on the matter, though Xun Yu's does mention the illness, which had previously and in the future kill many of Wei and Wu in the area.

Filled with vexation and grief, Lu Xun died, at the age of 63

When the Great Progenitor arrived at Ruxu, Xun Yu was left behind in Shouchun on account of illness. There, he died of grief at the age of 50


The question always is, does grief mean suicide. Or simply depression, like Chen Tai and Cao Zhi?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Thanks for the sources!

I had a previous debate with Dong Zhou about this when we were discussing Emperors and Empresses. If I recall corectly, we arrive at the same conclusion that died of grief is a codeword for being forced to suicide or just suicide due to difficult circumstances. But that might only apply to Empresses and Wives. So who knows...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:29 pm

Grief certainly eludes to suicide in many cases. I've had quite a few conversations on the case of Xun Yu in particular. I certainly think it's possible that grief does mean suicide in this game. Chen Shou was so so nice when he came right out and said it in the case of Han Fu. I get that if Xun Yu did it, it would reflect badly upon a Dynasty loyal subordinate that was crucial in the establishment of their power took their own life, thus a cover up would be likely. I personally think the box story is a pile of nothing from an untrustworthy source, but I do not rule out the possibility this case of grief being suicide.
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