Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:21 pm

I don't know about reddit - I've never ventured there. I think DaoLun and Archlich are great but when they are on tumblr they are very vocal with their bias' and perhaps even, very occasionally, exaggerate for effect. :wink:

Han wrote:I see. So Bei did set up temples for Bang and Xiu? Thats pretty cool info.

Your thoughts on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?


On a quick read of Early Chinese Religion, Part 2 (which I've only just discovered and can be read on google books) I was wrong, Liu Bei only set up temples to his great-grandfather, grandfather and father. It was Liu Yuan who set up temples to Liu Bang, Xiu and Bei.

I'm afraid I know very little about Chinese history outside of 160 AD-300 AD so wouldn't feel competent at replying.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:38 pm

I see. Still a cool piece of info.

Thats fine. Thank you very much once again.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:37 pm

Hi,

Someone knows where to find information about the historical battle of Red Cliff?

Thanks!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:30 pm

This chapter of To Establish Peace is probably the best place to start followed by this chapter of Generals of the South. The first translated by Prof De Crispigny and the second written by him.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:28 pm

Han wrote:2) Absolutely. Planning for the future especially after a loss of an entire province would be expected. Lack of controllibality? If I recall, Zhuge Liang feared Liu Feng for his martial prowess and feared that he would defect like Meng Da, nothing particular about his attitude.

3) Agreed.

Hmm, thats not how I see his comments. The way I look at it is a guy that wants to report to Liu Bei but at the same time understand Fa Zheng importance and value so did not do so.

For what its worth, Fa Zheng SGZ at XueSanGuo has:

Zhūgě Liàng and Zhèng, though their values were not the same, could admire each other’s righteousness. [Zhūgě] Liàng was always impressed with Zhèng’s wisdom and ability.

When Xiānzhǔ had just taken Imperial Title, and was about to campaign east against Sūn Quán to avenge the disgrace of Guān Yǔ, most of the officials remonstrated, but he would not listen to a single one. Zhāngwǔ second year [222], the main army was heavily defeated, and returned to station at Báidì. [Zhūgě] Liàng sighed and said: “if Fǎ Xiàozhí were still here, then he would have been able to hold back our ruler, and have him not go east, but even if we had gone east, then it certainly would not have been this much of a disaster.” (1)


5) I see. Where can I find information about this particular Liu Yan. Google net me many Liu Yans including the father of Liu Zhang but not this particular one.

6) Nah its cool lmao. Agreed.

8) Not really. To be fair, Cao Shuang did get his ass handed to him by both Shu Han externally in a single military campaihn and the Confucian Gentry internally through a revolt against his regime.

I see. Correct me if Im wrong but the official charges against him was the excess right? Plus most of the confucian gentry did feel alienated enough to the point where they sided with a Sima over a Cao.

4) Hmm. But the particular criticism by reddit is over the historical part hence the mention of the official historians of antiquity. Not the fictional part.

If I recall correctly, Zhang Liao did play a role in the charge. Agreed, seems like its tumblr anti ShuHan bias getting to work again. :wink:

Bar legitimacy? Not that I recall off the top of my head.


As in th King of HanZhong thing right? I see.

Your opinion on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?

I believe the temples he built for Emperor veneration were built as if he was the continuation of the previous Han dynasties.


I see. So Bei did set up temples for Bang and Xiu? Thats pretty cool info.

Your thoughts on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?


2) ZZTJ has
Zhuge Liang feared that Liu Feng, a man of strong will and character, might not remain tractable after the death of his adoptive father, so he now advised the King of Hanzhong to do away with him. Thereupon Liu Feng was ordered to commit suicide.


I do wonder if even a less "strong will" figure might have been considered too risky for the security of Shu given age and miliatry expirence.

3) That's fair, I may be reading too much into things.

The other quote I was thinking of is
"When his lordship was at Gongan," replied Zhuge Liang, "in the north he faced the strength of Cao Cao, in the east he shrank from the oppression of Sun Quan, while near at home he feared the Lady Sun would cause trouble in his own house.46 Through the aid Fa Xiaozhi47 brought him he was able to soar and fly high, so that nothing can hold him back. How can he now restrict and confine Xiaozhi, denying him the few things he asks?"


5) Same one, he timetravelled :wink: Apparently he has an SGZ translated ] here but where I had seen it mentioned pre that sgz, it tended to be in a more... hostile version for Wei Yan.

8) Just don't become a pollster!

Treason and corruption off the top of my head.

4) In my expirence, the cultural Guan Yu image is why the historical Guan Yu (at least partly) gets such a kicking even if they don't mention it

Zhang Liao took part but claims that Zhang Liao is the big credit guy or things like that can't be backed up. Zhang Liao led the forces, it was Guan Yu that managed to get the kill without it being credited to Zhang Liao

In terms of the Liu comparison, I'm ill placed to comment
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Tao Qian » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 pm

Sun Fin wrote:This chapter of To Establish Peace is probably the best place to start followed by this chapter of Generals of the South. The first translated by Prof De Crispigny and the second written by him.

Thanks!!!
I will check them.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 am

Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Also did the use of the word 'Han' to describe the ethnicity of China's people begin after the fall of the dynasty?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:41 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you Jia! that's really helpful! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:07 am

Jia Nanfeng wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Am I right in thinking that believers of the Yellow Turban campaign would have referred to themselves as followers of ‘The Way of Peace’? Yellow Turban was a derogatory name that came later from the court as they had scarves tied to their heads, right?

Zhang Jue taught from the Taipingjing, which are the “Scriptures of Great Peace”. He referred to his movement as the 太平道, which is the “Dao of Great Peace” or “Way of Great Peace” or “Road to Great Peace” (I’ve seen it translated in these various ways, and often without the word ‘Great’).

In the Romance, Zhang Jue is accordingly referred to as the “Great Peace Daoist”. So I would bet they were called Taiping Daoists (“Peace Daoists”) officially.

According to the Houhanji, Zhang Jue called his movement the "Way of Good" 善道.
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