Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:27 pm

Andros wrote:Hello together,

I made my own TOP 5 Ranking of Wu Generals (in the period 208-222) , but I need some help for the last two free spots.

My Top 5 are:
Zhou Tai
Gan Ning
Ling Tong
???????
???????

You can choose two of these characters:

Ding Feng - killed Zhang Liao, but was only a subgeneral and his great time was later
Cheng Pu - yeah he was a great number, but after Nanjun he didn't fight
Lu Meng - correct me if I am wrong, but he was a strategist or did he really fight?
Zhu Ran - his great accomplishments took place after the mentioned time period. Or am I wrong about that?
Lu Xun - more a strategists???
Taishi Ci - Died in Hefei or rather before Chibi.
Xu Sheng - Was he a top general or did he beat a great general?


Welcome to the board Andros! That's an interesting question. I would suggest we take this discussion of it to this thread as its a question that could prompt some debate and I'd hate to see it get buried!

I'm going to post my thoughts there.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7773
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:24 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
The reason why it makes little sense to fight Guan Yu and ignore Zhou Yu is the size of threats. Guan Yu has at most 10,000 soldiers and no real supply line. After all, he has to cross Wei held Jiang Ling (currently under siege) to attack Xiang Yang. He has no way to actually threaten the city beside raid the country side as Liu Bei has only just taken the four southern districts and hasn't even build Gong An yet probably (or is in the process of).

It is like as if Cao Cao sent an army after Liu Bei when he was raiding him in Run Nan and completely ignored Yuan Shao who has a giant army right next to him.

Zhou Yu has between thirty to fifty thousand solders besieging Jiang Ling, with Guan Yu driven off back to south of the river there is no threat to Xiang Yang anymore (not that there was much of one in the first place) There is no one to leave it undefended against. If Liu Bei wanted to siege Xiang Yang he would have to maintain a supply line from Gong An all the way past Zhou Yu's siege of Jiang Ling all the way up to Xiang Yang. That isn't feasible or realistic in any way, as the priority isn't in Zhou Yu's reinforcements but Zhou Yu.


I'm trying to figure out where you're getting these numbers and estimates. I can't really give any kind of good response without knowing where that's coming from. I mean, we don't know the exact circumstances in Xiangyang but clearly Cao Cao thought there was a reason to keep two of his very capable generals stationed there to begin with, and leaving a place empty is never a good idea. But again, until I get the info you have I can't really say much back
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:38 pm

I have many questions!

According to this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang

"In 760, when Emperor Suzong of the Tang dynasty built a temple to honour Jiang Ziya, he had sculptures of Zhuge Liang and another nine famous historical military generals/strategists – Bai Qi, Han Xin, Li Jing, Li Shiji, Zhang Liang, Tian Rangju, Sun Tzu, Wu Qi and Yue Yi – placed in the temple flanking Jiang Ziya's statue.[10]

[10] (上元元年,尊太公為武成王,祭典與文宣王比,以歷代良將為十哲象坐侍。秦武安君白起、漢淮陰侯韓信、蜀丞相諸葛亮、唐尚書右僕射衛國公李靖、司空英國公李勣列於左,漢太子少傅張良、齊大司馬田穰苴、吳將軍孫武、魏西河守吳起、燕晶國君樂毅列於右,以良為配。) Xin Tang Shu vol. 15."

1)Why was Zhuge Liang chosen over say... Deng Ai or Lü Meng? His military accomplishment in terms of actual results seems to be inferior compared to all the others.

=======

2)People on tumblr( :wink: ) make the case that Zhuge Liang was a power hungry person as evidence by the fact that he persuaded Liu Bei to murder Liu Feng.

According to this:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/12 ... a/75913842

"Xiahou Mao:

Well, it wasn't really Liu Bei's own son, it was an adopted son. And said adopted son was older than Liu Shan was. So, yes, it was necessary to ensure there were no issues with the succession. As things went, the succession was smooth and Zhuge Liang held undisputed control over the country while Liu Shan did Liu Shan things. The continued existence of Liu Feng could have thrown a wrench in that plan.

If Liu Feng had wanted power for himself, he could have been a rallying point for anti-Zhuge Liang ministers and generals within Shu. I'm sure there were some, as good as Zhuge Liang was. Guys like Li Yan who took issue with how Zhuge Liang ran things and wound up demoted or cast out as a result. They had no one to rally around because Liu Shan was Liu Shan, but a Liu Feng with a desire to rule could have caused internal conflict. And internal conflict was usually the precursor to a kingdom's collapse."

This particular user argue that it was in Zhuge Liang interest to get rid of Liu Feng.

3)So was Zhuge Liang really a power hungry person or was it a mere coincidence that he murdered Liu Feng just to prevent a succession crisis but it comes off as having sinister motives.

=======

4)People on reddit argue that Guan Yu at Baima was not particulary impressive yet some argue that Guan Yu at Baima was an amazing feat. Thoughts?

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comme ... confidence

"As /u/Draculasaurus_Rex said (Hello fellow dinosaur), the myth and history ends up melting together, especially since we're almost two millenniums past the era. We must be careful when reading sources like Chen Shou, Xi Zuochi, and even Pei Songzhi. They all have their own biases, especially since these men either lived during the period or much closer than we did. I would definitely recommend looking into the books or essays written by Rafe De Crespigny who is the West's main expert on the period and is generally considered to not be as biased.

• So at Guan Du, Guan Yu was a subordinate to Zhang Liao who launched a sudden assault on a unit lead by Yan Liang. I do believe Guan Yu killed Yan Liang, but Guan Yu probably wouldn't have broken through without his fellow soldiers and the command of Zhang Liao. And the scene probably wasn't Guan Yu breaking through a line of soldiers his allies held back. It was probably more like his allies were slowly surrounding and cutting down Yan Liang's men and Guan Yu was the man to reach Yan Liang first to make the killing blow. The loss of Yan Liang wasn't what decided the battle, it was the defections of key figures to Cao Cao's force and the attack on Wuchao that brought a strategic and tactical victory to Cao Cao."

However, here people make the case that Guan Yu slaying Yan Liang was one of the greatest act of martial prowess in 3K history:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23637

Notably Dong Zhou:

"With Guan Yu, it is hardly going to be a fair account when one goes "all the stuff I know he achieved? Doesn't count." That isn't a fair way of considering any man. Was killing Yan Liang a big deal? Yes. There were only six other officer on officer kills in the entire era so Guan Yu did something unexpected and rare. Who was Yan Liang? One of Yuan Shao's most celebrated officers at time. His death and that of Wen Chou would have a noted affect on morale."

=======

5)Do you all agree with this guy personal analysis?:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/12 ... 462?page=4

Xiahou Mao:

"Wei Yan's strategy would have taken him through the Ziwu gorge, a lengthy detour around towards the east that was so treacherous that Wei never considered attempting an attack on Shu from it. He was going to take only a few thousand soldiers for this attack. He wouldn't be able to bring heavy siege weaponry along with him, for the same reason Zhuge Liang wasn't able to when he tried to attack Chencang. And with that force, he expected to be able to capture Chang'An. A city that (historically at least) Ma Chao, when launching his own surprise attack on Wei, bypassed because its defenses were too strong, choosing instead to go to Tong Gate.

Even if he somehow takes it, what then? Resupplying his force is going to be hard, because of the rough terrain on the way through Ziwu. All the Wei forces in Liangzhou are still there, more than capable of attacking Chang'An over much better terrain in a pincer attack with forces from the capital region. Suddenly the defenses at Chang'An that we're assuming have to be porous for Wei Yan to be able to take the city need to be strong enough to hold off tens to hundreds of thousands of Wei troops counterattacking.

The plan would have led to Wei Yan's death. Zhuge Liang valued him to much to send him away on such a suicide mission."

I personally do.

=======

According to Li Yan wikipedia, Zhuge Liang wanted the Nine bestowments(?) :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Yan_(Three_Kingdoms)

"Li Yan once sent a letter to Zhuge Liang, stating the latter should receive the nine bestowments and become a vassal king of the Shu regime; Zhuge Liang replied that he would do so only after Shu had vanquished its rival state, Wei.[5]

[5] Zhuge Liang's reply can be found in Collected works of Zhuge Liang (諸葛亮集) - 亮答书曰:“吾与足下相知久矣,可不复相解!足下方诲以光国,戒之以勿拘之道,是以未得默已。吾本东方下士,误用於先帝,位极人臣,禄赐百亿,今讨贼未效,知己未答,而方宠齐、晋,坐自贵大,非其义也。若灭魏斩叡,帝还故居,与诸子并升,虽十命可受,况於九邪!” "

6)Does that lend more legitimacy that Zhuge Liang was a power hungry person? (Assuming thats true)

7)When Zhuge Liang and Li Yan were appointed by Liu Bei as regents, did Zhuge Liang have a higher rank and thus authority or was he the first among equals like Guan Yu as General of the Front?

=======

According to this:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/12 ... 842?page=1

" Basically, if Cao Cao had any suspicions about Sima Yi, they were his fault to begin with. Sima Yi hadn't wanted to join Cao Cao, and refused to do so when asked. This annoyed Cao Cao, who perhaps lacked the tact that Liu Bei had employed with Zhuge Liang, so he issued an ultimatum. Join me, or I'll arrest you. Sima Yi joined. So if there were hard feelings between the two, Cao Cao is the one to blame.

As for whether Sima Yi actually intended to usurp power from Wei to form his own dynasty, that's inconclusive. Cao Shuang was a tyrant and a fool, and Sima Yi acting to supplant him could be seen as a means to defend Wei rather than overthrow it. The Emperor at the time was Cao Fang, with Cao Shuang being the son of Cao Zhen (himself simply adopted into Cao Cao's clan rather than being related by blood). Sima Yi died just a few years after dealing with Cao Shuang, though, leaving his sons to continue in his stead. Sima Shi and Sima Zhao made their intentions clearly known, that they wanted to usurp Wei, but we can't paint that desire onto Sima Yi with certainty. He might have wanted it, but he just as easily might not have.

So had Cao Cao lived longer, Cao Shuang never would have happened and Sima Yi would have no need or opportunity to rise against him."

However, Fei Yi SanGuoZhi Biography makes the case that Sima Yi was inappropriate in his actions:

" Yan Ji’s Tongyu says: When Sima Yi had Cao Shuang killed, Fei Yi presented the following argumentation to reason out who was right and who was wrong in the matter. Viewpoint A assumes that Cao Shuang and his brothers were men of ordinary caliber, and only because they were scions of the imperial house were they given the responsibility of advising the [young emperor]. However, they were arrogant and assumed luxuries and power beyond their station, befriending improper people, building up their own faction to plot against the kingdom. Therefore, when Sima Yi led a force against them in punitive action and eliminated the lot at once, he showed that he was worthy of the task entrusted to him and his action was in accordance with the hopes and wishes of the people.
Viewpoint B takes Sima Yi to be discontent at the former Cao lord’s not giving power solely to him, as well as Cao Shuang’s interfering with his business. Shi shi bu zhuan, and thus he secretly harboured a grudge against him. Therefore, he did not give Cao Shuang’s group admonishment or warning beforehand, and on one day slaughtered them all, taking them off guard. In this case, he was not doing something that a gentleman would do to preserve the kingdom.
Now, if we assume Cao Shuang had been plotting against his lord, and his treasonous plans were already in motion. On the day the mutiny happened, Cao Fang was in the hands of Cao Shuang and his brother. When Sima Yi and his sons put a force together behind closed gates and turn it in Cao Fang’s direction, Cao Fang’s safety was surely compromised. Can this really be a loyal minister acting for the good of his lord? Reasoning from this, it is clear that Cao Shuang was not guilty of great evils. If Sima Yi really considered Cao Shuang to be guilty of extravagance and arrogance, it would suffice for him to execute him according to the law. However, he exterminated even his infant children, branding them with the name of disloyalty, effectively wiping out Zidan’s [Cao Shuang’s] line. Also, He Yan’s son was a nephew of the Wei ruler, and even he was killed. Sima Yi was assuming too much power and behaving improperly."

8)So whats your personal take on Sima Yi actions? Did he want more power... or was he just getting rid of a pathetic minister?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:03 am

By 760 AD folklore had spread and Zhuge Liang's supposed military exploits had already become legend.

Is for Xiahou Mao's argument about Wei Yan's plans, I believe I've seen him make that argument here before too, I agree with him.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7773
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:14 am

Can't answer 1 and 7

2) XM is awesome.

I can't disagree with the analysis. I don't think that passage particularly reads powerhungry, XM talks of the risk of destabilizing the kingdom and so on. Was Zhuge Liang powerhungry behind it? I don't think Liang was unaware that this would help him but I see no evidence he didn't have the wider kingdom interest, which required Feng to die, at heart there

3) Was Liang power-hungry? I would more say he liked controlling things (he isn't an example of delegation to say the least) and he didn't like being second favourite to Fa Zheng. I don't get the sense Liang's dream was ultimate power

5) Yes. I believe Wei Yan was one of Shu's best generals and there is a case to be made that having a secondry force turn up somewhere unexpected might have shifted Wei defences and allowed Shu to push on. Wei Yan however was an egomaniac who was mollycoddled by Zhuge Liang (he literally sacked people to appease Wei Yan) yet somehow Zhuge Liang is deemed by people to treat poor victim Wei Yan cruelly.

On the Chang An plan, from what I recall Wei Yan's plan relies on Xiahou Mao running away becuase Wei Yan is the awesomesuace. If everything goes right then yes it is a gamechanger but if, say, Xiahou Mao goes "Shu force? Close gates and send messenger to the Emperor for help" then Wei Yan is doomed. Or Wei does anything remotely sensible during the camapign. It isn't so much Wei Yan needs everything to go his way but it relies on the entire of Wei to be so stupid, they forget how to dress.

6) I would need to see the full thing I suspect and if Zhuge Liang unites the land then frankly he can demand a unicorn for all I care

8) You slightly bias the question there :wink: Little bit of column a, little bit of column b. Destroying Cao Shuang did serve Sima Yi's interest, he lied quite a bit and it has to be said he didn't exactly ensure he and his family didn't benefit unduly. That doesn't mean "ah, we can become Emperors" came to mind, he may well have just thought powerful regent family. Stories of Sima Yi's ambition and the foreshadowing may simply be love of narrative however rather then actually true.

Fei Yi was from an enemy state so it served purpose in trying to deligltmise Sima Yi's coup while I doubt Liu Shan and his chief minister wanted people to get in their head to take such a gamble with the Emperor. The Cao Shuang vs Sima Yi was at least partly idealogical and Sima Yi probably believed that the libertines were a danger to the country vs Confucian men (like himself) and that he was saving the country.
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17117
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:05 pm

By 760 AD folklore had spread and Zhuge Liang's supposed military exploits had already become legend.

Is for Xiahou Mao's argument about Wei Yan's plans, I believe I've seen him make that argument here before too, I agree with him.


I see. Thats perfectly understandable than. Just checking but are there any sources or examples for your claim?

Agreed.

What are your thoughts and opinions about my other questions Sun? :D

Can't answer 1 and 7

2) XM is awesome.

I can't disagree with the analysis. I don't think that passage particularly reads powerhungry, XM talks of the risk of destabilizing the kingdom and so on. Was Zhuge Liang powerhungry behind it? I don't think Liang was unaware that this would help him but I see no evidence he didn't have the wider kingdom interest, which required Feng to die, at heart there

3) Was Liang power-hungry? I would more say he liked controlling things (he isn't an example of delegation to say the least) and he didn't like being second favourite to Fa Zheng. I don't get the sense Liang's dream was ultimate power

5) Yes. I believe Wei Yan was one of Shu's best generals and there is a case to be made that having a secondry force turn up somewhere unexpected might have shifted Wei defences and allowed Shu to push on. Wei Yan however was an egomaniac who was mollycoddled by Zhuge Liang (he literally sacked people to appease Wei Yan) yet somehow Zhuge Liang is deemed by people to treat poor victim Wei Yan cruelly.

On the Chang An plan, from what I recall Wei Yan's plan relies on Xiahou Mao running away becuase Wei Yan is the awesomesuace. If everything goes right then yes it is a gamechanger but if, say, Xiahou Mao goes "Shu force? Close gates and send messenger to the Emperor for help" then Wei Yan is doomed. Or Wei does anything remotely sensible during the camapign. It isn't so much Wei Yan needs everything to go his way but it relies on the entire of Wei to be so stupid, they forget how to dress.

6) I would need to see the full thing I suspect and if Zhuge Liang unites the land then frankly he can demand a unicorn for all I care

8) You slightly bias the question there :wink: Little bit of column a, little bit of column b. Destroying Cao Shuang did serve Sima Yi's interest, he lied quite a bit and it has to be said he didn't exactly ensure he and his family didn't benefit unduly. That doesn't mean "ah, we can become Emperors" came to mind, he may well have just thought powerful regent family. Stories of Sima Yi's ambition and the foreshadowing may simply be love of narrative however rather then actually true.

Fei Yi was from an enemy state so it served purpose in trying to deligltmise Sima Yi's coup while I doubt Liu Shan and his chief minister wanted people to get in their head to take such a gamble with the Emperor. The Cao Shuang vs Sima Yi was at least partly idealogical and Sima Yi probably believed that the libertines were a danger to the country vs Confucian men (like himself) and that he was saving the country.


Thats perfectly fine. Most of my questions are pretty opinion based in the first place!

2) Yes he is! His opinions and arguments are well constructed and perfectly thought out and backed by logic!

Fair enough. Generally agree, but could you elaborate more on " I don't think Liang was unaware that this would help him"

3) Agreed. But couldnt an argument be made that Zhuge Liang " control" came about because of important factors like his notably high title and the dire situation Shu Han was in post Liu Bei death? Jing was lost. Tens of thousands soliders died in Yiling. Tens of generals too. Liu Shan was extremely young. There was the usual tensions between Shu Han at its rivals. A long rebellion in the south. Tensions between local Yi gentry and Liu Bei personal faction. Etc etc. Whats your reasoning behind the Fa Zheng thing? If I recall Zhuge Liang went pretty easy on Fa Zheng and was heavily criticised for it.

5) Who did Zhuge Liang sacked? Agreed with the rest.

6) Haha fair enough. I posted whatever information I could find already though.

8) How so? Fair enough.

Ideological as in the excess of Shuang cabal and the alienation of the confucian gentry right?

What are your personal thoughts on number 4 Dong? For whats its worth, people on tumblr( :wink: ) also make a case that though Guan Yu at Baima is impressive it has been too mystified and embellished and that Zhang Liao deserves a large share of the credit!

Additional Questions, but did Liu Bei ever compared himself to the previous West Han and East Han Emperors? According to Zhuge Liang Chu Shi Biao in the wikipedia, Liu Bei will frequently sigh over Huan and Ling.

Also, how does Liu Bei compare to Liu Bang( GaoZu) and Liu Xiu( GuangWu) when it comes to Leadership, Charisma, Administration, Generalship, Martial Valor and Diplomacy?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Han wrote:I see. Thats perfectly understandable than. Just checking but are there any sources or examples for your claim?


Only anecdotal I'm afraid. New World Encyclopedia has a section on his legacy which includes a poem written during the Tang dynasty:

Where to seek the temple of the noble Premier?
In the deep pine forests outside the City of Silk:
Where grass-covered steps mirror the colours of spring,
And among the leaves orioles empty songs sing.
Three visits brought him the weight of the world;
Two dynasties he served with one heart.
Passing ere his quest was complete,
Tears damp the robes of heroes ever since.


Notice the poem mentions a temple so he was already being worshiped by Du Fu's lifetime (712-770) which I think points towards legends spreading up about him.

If you wanted to read a book about it this one appears to be on the topic, however I don't own it so I can't be sure. It appears to focus on the impact of RoTK but puts it in the wider cultural context.

Han wrote:What are your thoughts and opinions about my other questions Sun? :D


My reading of Zhuge Liang has always been that he was a loyal and hardworking man who wanted to do his best for the kingdom. In his opinion though, and probably true, what was best for Shu-Han was him being in power. What re-assures me about his intentions was that he didn't do the same as the likes of the other powerful regents (ie Cao Cao and Sima Yi). For example he didn't take the title of Duke or King, nor did he put his son to be in a position to be his successor as an all powerful regent, instead he made sure Fei Yi followed him, ensuring the stability and good rule of the Empire.

Personally I do find Guan Yu's slaying of Yan Liang impressive, it was a moment of martial skill and bravery regardless of the circumstances.

Sima Yi, in contrast to Zhuge Liang, clearly did want power and position for his sons and family. Whether he wanted to be Emperor or not I couldn't say. However he made sure his son inherited his role in the kingdom, in a very similar style to Cao Cao and he was aware of how that worked out.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7773
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:27 pm

Mind zonked, if answers make no sense, give me a kick


2) Zhuge Liang's mind is on after Liu Bei dies and as the lead civil officer, Zhuge Liang is highly likely to be at least a major power. Liu Feng's lack of controllability will make his job harder and could be used by a powerful rival in the court to bring down Zhuge Liang

3) I was more thinking his refusal to delegate even small tasks but there has been questions about his treatment of Li Yan and he had the four great ministers. So did he need to be so controlling all the time? Part of it was workaholic to point of being dangerous for himself, some of it was no doubt what you said Han about the situation he was left in.

In terms of Fa Zheng, Liang's comments when asked he did not complain to Liu Bei about Fa Zheng just come across as someone... frustrated at the favour shown. He knows he can't persuade Liu Bei to do anything

5) Liu Yan (not that I'm sympathetic towards Liu Yan, he should have been sacked before) and can't track down the other. I'm wondering if I recall Wei Yan trying to get Yang Yi sacked but got it confused and thought he got someone else sacked

6) Yes, sorry didn't mean to imply you hid information. Merely I didn't have enough information to give an informed comment

8) Pathetic minister is unusually strong language for such a question, it risk reading that you think option b is totally the right one.

Not quite. I mean Confucian vs Neo-doaist, new age vs the old ways, conservatism vs libertine

4) The thing is, the novel actually accuses Guan Yu of cheating. It even brings Guan Yu's ghost and punishes him for cheating. Unsurprisingly Baima is written up (the account of Yan Liang's death isn't very detailed) but it goes from killing in battle to "Yan Liang was lying on a deckchair getting suntanned, drinking a cocktail when Guan Yu comes along and stabs him on before wandering back" (this may or may not be 100% accurate retelling :P)

There isn't any real attempt in the sgz to give credit to Zhang Liao over this. Where I think credit is due is for Cao Cao and co managing to split the Yuan forces and catch Yan Liang out but the kill is Guan Yu's glory.

Additional Questions, but did Liu Bei ever compared himself to the previous West Han and East Han Emperors? According to Zhuge Liang Chu Shi Biao in the wikipedia, Liu Bei will frequently sigh over Huan and Ling.


Bar legitimacy? Not that I recall off the top of my head.
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17117
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:16 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Bar legitimacy? Not that I recall off the top of my head.


I believe the temples he built for Emperor veneration were built as if he was the continuation of the previous Han dynasties.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7773
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Only anecdotal I'm afraid. New World Encyclopedia has a section on his legacy which includes a poem written during the Tang dynasty:


Thats fine. Cool poetry.

Notice the poem mentions a temple so he was already being worshiped by Du Fu's lifetime (712-770) which I think points towards legends spreading up about him.

If you wanted to read a book about it this one appears to be on the topic, however I don't own it so I can't be sure. It appears to focus on the impact of RoTK but puts it in the wider cultural context.


Agreed.

I see. Thanks!

My reading of Zhuge Liang has always been that he was a loyal and hardworking man who wanted to do his best for the kingdom. In his opinion though, and probably true, what was best for Shu-Han was him being in power. What re-assures me about his intentions was that he didn't do the same as the likes of the other powerful regents (ie Cao Cao and Sima Yi). For example he didn't take the title of Duke or King, nor did he put his son to be in a position to be his successor as an all powerful regent, instead he made sure Fei Yi followed him, ensuring the stability and good rule of the Empire.

Personally I do find Guan Yu's slaying of Yan Liang impressive, it was a moment of martial skill and bravery regardless of the circumstances.

Sima Yi, in contrast to Zhuge Liang, clearly did want power and position for his sons and family. Whether he wanted to be Emperor or not I couldn't say. However he made sure his son inherited his role in the kingdom, in a very similar style to Cao Cao and he was aware of how that worked out.


Exactly this. Completely agree. This was what I was looking for to be perfectly honest. Him not demanding a title of Duke or King unlike Cao Cao makes me admire him alot.

Absolutely. Unfortunately people no reddit and tumblr seems to disagree.

That is a fair and valid point.

Mind zonked, if answers make no sense, give me a kick


2) Zhuge Liang's mind is on after Liu Bei dies and as the lead civil officer, Zhuge Liang is highly likely to be at least a major power. Liu Feng's lack of controllability will make his job harder and could be used by a powerful rival in the court to bring down Zhuge Liang

3) I was more thinking his refusal to delegate even small tasks but there has been questions about his treatment of Li Yan and he had the four great ministers. So did he need to be so controlling all the time? Part of it was workaholic to point of being dangerous for himself, some of it was no doubt what you said Han about the situation he was left in.

In terms of Fa Zheng, Liang's comments when asked he did not complain to Liu Bei about Fa Zheng just come across as someone... frustrated at the favour shown. He knows he can't persuade Liu Bei to do anything

5) Liu Yan (not that I'm sympathetic towards Liu Yan, he should have been sacked before) and can't track down the other. I'm wondering if I recall Wei Yan trying to get Yang Yi sacked but got it confused and thought he got someone else sacked

6) Yes, sorry didn't mean to imply you hid information. Merely I didn't have enough information to give an informed comment

8) Pathetic minister is unusually strong language for such a question, it risk reading that you think option b is totally the right one.

Not quite. I mean Confucian vs Neo-doaist, new age vs the old ways, conservatism vs libertine

4) The thing is, the novel actually accuses Guan Yu of cheating. It even brings Guan Yu's ghost and punishes him for cheating. Unsurprisingly Baima is written up (the account of Yan Liang's death isn't very detailed) but it goes from killing in battle to "Yan Liang was lying on a deckchair getting suntanned, drinking a cocktail when Guan Yu comes along and stabs him on before wandering back" (this may or may not be 100% accurate retelling :P)

There isn't any real attempt in the sgz to give credit to Zhang Liao over this. Where I think credit is due is for Cao Cao and co managing to split the Yuan forces and catch Yan Liang out but the kill is Guan Yu's glory.


2) Absolutely. Planning for the future especially after a loss of an entire province would be expected. Lack of controllibality? If I recall, Zhuge Liang feared Liu Feng for his martial prowess and feared that he would defect like Meng Da, nothing particular about his attitude.

3) Agreed.

Hmm, thats not how I see his comments. The way I look at it is a guy that wants to report to Liu Bei but at the same time understand Fa Zheng importance and value so did not do so.

For what its worth, Fa Zheng SGZ at XueSanGuo has:

Zhūgě Liàng and Zhèng, though their values were not the same, could admire each other’s righteousness. [Zhūgě] Liàng was always impressed with Zhèng’s wisdom and ability.

When Xiānzhǔ had just taken Imperial Title, and was about to campaign east against Sūn Quán to avenge the disgrace of Guān Yǔ, most of the officials remonstrated, but he would not listen to a single one. Zhāngwǔ second year [222], the main army was heavily defeated, and returned to station at Báidì. [Zhūgě] Liàng sighed and said: “if Fǎ Xiàozhí were still here, then he would have been able to hold back our ruler, and have him not go east, but even if we had gone east, then it certainly would not have been this much of a disaster.” (1)


5) I see. Where can I find information about this particular Liu Yan. Google net me many Liu Yans including the father of Liu Zhang but not this particular one.

6) Nah its cool lmao. Agreed.

8) Not really. To be fair, Cao Shuang did get his ass handed to him by both Shu Han externally in a single military campaihn and the Confucian Gentry internally through a revolt against his regime.

I see. Correct me if Im wrong but the official charges against him was the excess right? Plus most of the confucian gentry did feel alienated enough to the point where they sided with a Sima over a Cao.

4) Hmm. But the particular criticism by reddit is over the historical part hence the mention of the official historians of antiquity. Not the fictional part.

If I recall correctly, Zhang Liao did play a role in the charge. Agreed, seems like its tumblr anti ShuHan bias getting to work again. :wink:

Bar legitimacy? Not that I recall off the top of my head.


As in th King of HanZhong thing right? I see.

Your opinion on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?

I believe the temples he built for Emperor veneration were built as if he was the continuation of the previous Han dynasties.


I see. So Bei did set up temples for Bang and Xiu? Thats pretty cool info.

Your thoughts on Bei vs Bang vs Xiu?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved