Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:05 pm

Does anyone have any theories on who this was that was discovered?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livesc ... vered.html
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:29 pm

Did Sun Wu annex any Cao Wei territory or kill any Cao Wei general like how Zhuge Liang annex two commanderies and kill Zhang He and Wang Shuang?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:27 pm

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14938

How true is this?

To quote Professor Luo Kai Yu in a compilation of the 25 historical texts, Zhong Hua Shu Ju

Tun Tian could be widely found in many areas under Wei’s control though mainly concentrated in Xing Yang, Luo Yang, Xu Chang, Ru Nan etc. As most of the farmers were rebels initially, there was bound to be some form of resistance in the process of farming. Consequently, the administrators would then be forced to employ brutal methods in governing to maintain the system. Indeed, though tun tian was largely done by the civilians initially, the system of governance remained military in nature. For instance, to prevent the tun tian farmers from attempting to escape. the government implemented the Shi Jia system. (Shi Jia was the name of the "new class of people" in tun tian while shi refers to the male farmers or head of the family) For those Shis who escaped, the wives will be executed while the rest of the family members be slaves for the officials. The daughters of Shis could only be married to Shis

When Cao Cao eradicated Yuan Shao forces and unified the north, he often made use of the chances presented during military expeditions to capture as many civilians as possible. For example, though Zhang Liao failed in his battle against Yuan Shang, he successfully captured Yin An upon retreat and moved the locals back to Wei. Similarly, in his attack of Jingzhou against Liu Biao, Cao Cao also transported large numbers of civilians in Jingzhou back. These civilians, who were forcibly deported, had statuses similar to war captives. (In fact, they were treated as war spoils and were used by generals as proof to claim their rewards.) These people were indeed viewed as highly suitable for tun tian. One such person who experienced the above was Deng Ai. Together with his mother, villagers and extended family, they were despatched from Jingzhou to Runan (some say Xiang Cheng) to partake in tun tian when Cao Cao conquered Jing Zhou. He was in fact only twelve to thirteen when he partook in such laborious activities.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:43 pm

From Man Chong's SGZ about his son

Shìyǔ states: Wěi styled Gōnghéng. Wěi’s son Chángwǔ resembled [his grandfather] Chǒng. At age twenty-four he joined the staff of the General-in-Chief [Sīmǎ Zhāo]. After the incident with the Duke of Gāoguì village, he was appointed official in charge of the Palace Gates night gate.Sīmǎ [Zhāo]’s younger brother the Marquis of Ānyáng district [Sīmǎ] Gàn wished to enter. Gàn’s wife was Wěi’s younger sister. Chángwǔ said: “The lord has already come through this gate. No one is to enter. You may use the east night gate.” Gàn therefore went. When [Sīmǎ Zhāo] asked Gàn why he had arrived late, and Gàn said this was the reason.Military Advisor Wáng Xiàn also could not enter, and hated him, so he had [Sīmǎ Zhāo]’s attendants inform [Sīmǎ Zhāo]: “The official Mǎn closed off the gate and would not allow anyone to enter. He should be to dismissed and impeached.”During the Shòuchūn campaign Wěi followed [Sīmǎ Zhāo] to Xǔ, but because of illness could not continue. His son [Chángwǔ] was following and requested that they withdraw to treat the illness. Only after the campaign was finished did they return, and because of this they were hated. Chángwǔ died during interrogation [and torture] beneath the [beating] staff. Wěi was spared and demoted to commoner. The people of the time thought this was an injustice to them. Wěi’s brother’s son Fèn during Jìn’s Kāngzhōng reign [291-299] reached Director of the Secretariat and Colonel Director of Retainers.Chǒng, Wěi, Chángwǔ, Fèn were all eight feet [~1.85 meters] tall.


Why was Man family punished for illness? Have I missed something?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:11 pm

Han wrote:http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14938

How true is this?

To quote Professor Luo Kai Yu in a compilation of the 25 historical texts, Zhong Hua Shu Ju

Tun Tian could be widely found in many areas under Wei’s control though mainly concentrated in Xing Yang, Luo Yang, Xu Chang, Ru Nan etc. As most of the farmers were rebels initially, there was bound to be some form of resistance in the process of farming. Consequently, the administrators would then be forced to employ brutal methods in governing to maintain the system. Indeed, though tun tian was largely done by the civilians initially, the system of governance remained military in nature. For instance, to prevent the tun tian farmers from attempting to escape. the government implemented the Shi Jia system. (Shi Jia was the name of the "new class of people" in tun tian while shi refers to the male farmers or head of the family) For those Shis who escaped, the wives will be executed while the rest of the family members be slaves for the officials. The daughters of Shis could only be married to Shis

When Cao Cao eradicated Yuan Shao forces and unified the north, he often made use of the chances presented during military expeditions to capture as many civilians as possible. For example, though Zhang Liao failed in his battle against Yuan Shang, he successfully captured Yin An upon retreat and moved the locals back to Wei. Similarly, in his attack of Jingzhou against Liu Biao, Cao Cao also transported large numbers of civilians in Jingzhou back. These civilians, who were forcibly deported, had statuses similar to war captives. (In fact, they were treated as war spoils and were used by generals as proof to claim their rewards.) These people were indeed viewed as highly suitable for tun tian. One such person who experienced the above was Deng Ai. Together with his mother, villagers and extended family, they were despatched from Jingzhou to Runan (some say Xiang Cheng) to partake in tun tian when Cao Cao conquered Jing Zhou. He was in fact only twelve to thirteen when he partook in such laborious activities.


Considering the information on Deng Ai directly contradicts the beginning of his SGZ, I will say at least that information is incorrect.

SGZ says
At twelve years old, Deng Ai accompanied his mother to Ying Chuan county.

The rest I cannot comment on.

Dong Zhou wrote:From Man Chong's SGZ about his son

Shìyǔ states: Wěi styled Gōnghéng. Wěi’s son Chángwǔ resembled [his grandfather] Chǒng. At age twenty-four he joined the staff of the General-in-Chief [Sīmǎ Zhāo]. After the incident with the Duke of Gāoguì village, he was appointed official in charge of the Palace Gates night gate.Sīmǎ [Zhāo]’s younger brother the Marquis of Ānyáng district [Sīmǎ] Gàn wished to enter. Gàn’s wife was Wěi’s younger sister. Chángwǔ said: “The lord has already come through this gate. No one is to enter. You may use the east night gate.” Gàn therefore went. When [Sīmǎ Zhāo] asked Gàn why he had arrived late, and Gàn said this was the reason.Military Advisor Wáng Xiàn also could not enter, and hated him, so he had [Sīmǎ Zhāo]’s attendants inform [Sīmǎ Zhāo]: “The official Mǎn closed off the gate and would not allow anyone to enter. He should be to dismissed and impeached.”During the Shòuchūn campaign Wěi followed [Sīmǎ Zhāo] to Xǔ, but because of illness could not continue. His son [Chángwǔ] was following and requested that they withdraw to treat the illness. Only after the campaign was finished did they return, and because of this they were hated. Chángwǔ died during interrogation [and torture] beneath the [beating] staff. Wěi was spared and demoted to commoner. The people of the time thought this was an injustice to them. Wěi’s brother’s son Fèn during Jìn’s Kāngzhōng reign [291-299] reached Director of the Secretariat and Colonel Director of Retainers.Chǒng, Wěi, Chángwǔ, Fèn were all eight feet [~1.85 meters] tall.


Why was Man family punished for illness? Have I missed something?


Man Wei appears to have been slander by Wang Xian, who said he should be impeached as Man Wei refused to meet with him. Given that his son also withdrew from campaign to treat his father, it may be reasonable to assume people thought they held "rebellious" thoughts against Wei (the Sima). However it's also the Shiyu... Since I don't know of anywhere else this account appears, and Pei believes the Shiyu to be the "poorest" text he's ever encountered, I'd disregard the whole thing. Similar to the slaughtering of the Guan family thing, it appears nowhere else. At least nowhere else that I've seen.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Wasnt yingchuan part of Runan?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:45 pm

Why did Liu Bei speak of Chen Deng so highly? Were they even acquaintance?

Chén Dēng, styled Yuánlōng, in Guǎnglíng had authority and reputation. He also in the settling of Lǚ Bù had achievement, and was advanced to General Subduing Waves. Aged thirty-nine years he died.

Later Xǔ Sì and Liú Bèi were both seated guests of Governor of Jīngzhōu Liú Biǎo, and Biǎo and Bèi together discussed the people of the world Under Heaven. Sì said: “Chén Yuánlōng is a scholar of the lake and sealands, [but] barbaric without end.”

Bèi said to Biǎo: “Is what sir Xǔ has said right or wrong?”

Biǎo said: “Suppose I wish to say wrong, but then this sir is an excellent scholar, and would not inappropriately speak false words. Suppose I wish to say right, but Yuánlōng is renowned greatly in the world Under Heaven.”

Bèi asked Sì: “When you sir say he is barbaric, is there a reason?”

Sì said: “Previously in the chaos I happened to pass Xiàpī, and met Chén Yuánlōng. Yuánlōng has no courtesy in caring for guests, and for a long time would not face or speak with me. He kept himself up sitting atop a large bed, and had guests sit below the bed.”

Bèi said: “You sir have have reputation of a state scholar. Now the world Under Heaven is in great chaos, the Emperor has lost his place. [Chén Dēng] hoped that you would worry for the state and forget your home, and have intentions to bring salvation, but you sir asked for land and residence, and in your words there was nothing workable. This was what Yuánlōng would not speak of. Why should he have spoken with you sir? If it were me, I would lie a hundred chǐ above, and have you sir lie on the ground, and what would be the difference between the high or low bed?”

Biǎo greatly laughed. Bèi therefore said: “Those like Yuánlōng in civil and military courage and ambition could only be sought for in ancient times and that is all. Now it is difficult to find those that can compare.”
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:14 pm

Han wrote:Wasnt yingchuan part of Runan?


Yingchuan and Runan were apart of the same province, Yuzhou.

Han wrote:Why did Liu Bei speak of Chen Deng so highly? Were they even acquaintance?

Chén Dēng, styled Yuánlōng, in Guǎnglíng had authority and reputation. He also in the settling of Lǚ Bù had achievement, and was advanced to General Subduing Waves. Aged thirty-nine years he died.

Later Xǔ Sì and Liú Bèi were both seated guests of Governor of Jīngzhōu Liú Biǎo, and Biǎo and Bèi together discussed the people of the world Under Heaven. Sì said: “Chén Yuánlōng is a scholar of the lake and sealands, [but] barbaric without end.”

Bèi said to Biǎo: “Is what sir Xǔ has said right or wrong?”

Biǎo said: “Suppose I wish to say wrong, but then this sir is an excellent scholar, and would not inappropriately speak false words. Suppose I wish to say right, but Yuánlōng is renowned greatly in the world Under Heaven.”

Bèi asked Sì: “When you sir say he is barbaric, is there a reason?”

Sì said: “Previously in the chaos I happened to pass Xiàpī, and met Chén Yuánlōng. Yuánlōng has no courtesy in caring for guests, and for a long time would not face or speak with me. He kept himself up sitting atop a large bed, and had guests sit below the bed.”

Bèi said: “You sir have have reputation of a state scholar. Now the world Under Heaven is in great chaos, the Emperor has lost his place. [Chén Dēng] hoped that you would worry for the state and forget your home, and have intentions to bring salvation, but you sir asked for land and residence, and in your words there was nothing workable. This was what Yuánlōng would not speak of. Why should he have spoken with you sir? If it were me, I would lie a hundred chǐ above, and have you sir lie on the ground, and what would be the difference between the high or low bed?”

Biǎo greatly laughed. Bèi therefore said: “Those like Yuánlōng in civil and military courage and ambition could only be sought for in ancient times and that is all. Now it is difficult to find those that can compare.”


Chen Deng served Tao Qian and more than likely Liu Bei during his time in Xuzhou, so they were probably close at one point or another. Chen Deng was also exceptionally talented as well, given his role against Sun Ce was the greatest obstacle in expansion for the southlands.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:22 pm

True true. Thanks again!

Where can I find Liu Shan comments on Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Pang Tong, Xiahou Ba and the fictional 5 tigers. Zhao Yun wikipedia states that these guys received posthumous titles during Liu Shan reign, which was a great honour.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Han wrote:True true. Thanks again!

Where can I find Liu Shan comments on Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Pang Tong, Xiahou Ba and the fictional 5 tigers. Zhao Yun wikipedia states that these guys received posthumous titles during Liu Shan reign, which was a great honour.


This is from the Empiredivided (RIP) Zhao Yun SGZ translation,

During the First Emperor�s time, Fa Zheng was the only one who received a posthumous title. When it came to the Later Emperor, Zhuge Liang, due to his achievements that overshadow the world, Jiang Wan and Fei Yi, because they took responsibility of the country, all received such title. Chen Di is liked by the emperor thus is granted this reward; Xiahou Ba came from faraway therefore he is entitled to this privilege. Therefore when Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong, and Yun all received posthumous title, the people at that all regard this as an honor.

Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan: The Later Emperor�s edict: �Yun served the late emperor and had amazing achievements. When I was young and in danger, I was able to escape due to Yun�s loyalty. Posthumous titles are for contributors, which would include Yun. Chief General Jiang Wei etc. discussed and believed when Yun served the late emperor and made great contributions. He helped manage the kingdom and obeyed the laws, thus his achievements are recordable. The battle of Dangyang showed his unwavering loyalty. A vassal should serve the emperor without the fear of death because the emperor would treat his subjects with manners and give rewards properly. The deceased ones should be remembered while the living ones should be encouraged to forget his own danger. Following the rules of posthumous titles: who is gentle, virtue, and kind should be named Shun; who is can carry out tasks orderly should be named Ping; who is able to put out disordered should be named Ping, thus it is proper to give the title of Marquis of Shun Ping to Yun.� Yun�s son Tong succeeded his father�s title and received rank up to Hu Guan Zhong Lang (5), and commander of the leading army. His second son Guang has the rank of Ya Men Jiang and died on battlefield when he followed Jiang Wei to Ta Zhong.
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