Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:17 pm

It isn't that Zhu Ling was unhappy but that Cao Cao simply took against him for reasons unknown
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cyan » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:48 pm

Hi There,

years ago I recall reading on a DW game, Liu Biao missed several opportunities to unite the land due to his indecisive nature.

My question is, is there any proof that Liu Biao was historically indecisive and if so what opportunities did he miss?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:19 am

Liu Biao was not indecisive; he assisted Hu Mao (the government appointee) in ther struggle to succeed Liu Yan, he sent Lai Gong and Wu Qu to take Jiao from Shi Xie after the administrator of Cangwu died, and in 202 he sent Liu Bei to raid Cao Cao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:36 am

Did Zhang Xiu fall under his authority as well?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:03 am

I think they were allied at the very least. I don't think he held any administrative post in Wan, so I'm not sure if he was some sort of subordinate of Liu Biao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:05 pm

Cyan wrote:Hi There,

years ago I recall reading on a DW game, Liu Biao missed several opportunities to unite the land due to his indecisive nature.

My question is, is there any proof that Liu Biao was historically indecisive and if so what opportunities did he miss?


Welcome to the forum Cyan

The reputation for indecisiveness comes from his inaction at Guan Du where Yuan Shao asked for troops Cao Cao asked for help and was backed by major figures at Liu Biao's court but Liu Biao chose neither. Some historians criticize his general lack of action in central plains while the encyclopaedia may be influence by novel which rewrites Liu Biao's personality and makes a big thing about his failure to intervene at Guan Du but encyclopaedia is overselling the idea of "uniting the land, several opportunities" even then

I would say with Guan Du, Liu Biao had reasons to be cautoius. Liu Zhang was an enemy to his west, he had forces tied up in south against Wu, Zhang Xiu his commander/ally in the east had defected soon to be replaced by Liu Bei who Biao didn't trust at all

Sun Fin wrote:Did Zhang Xiu fall under his authority as well?


He swore allegiance after Zhang Ji's death but feels more like an alliance/vassal lord then direct subordinate
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:13 pm

Keep in mind that during the Guandu era he had a furious Sun Ce/Sun Quan to his east, both Liu Zhang and Shi Xie had grudges against him, and he had just put down Zhang Xian's rebellion. Most likely he could only send out a limited amount of troops, as most of them would have to stay home and discourage his neighbors.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:24 pm

Yeah, the only way Liu Biao could have possibly made a difference is if he sent a huge army up north. If he did that then many people would have taken advantage of his weakened defenses. So it is understandable that he didn't want to take the risk.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:53 pm

I feel his chances were to beat Yuan Shu (Sun Ce) to the South-East. Liu Zhang was likely to timid to attack him, especially with Zhang Lu on his border. However the legitimacy for such a move would have been dubious as the current rulers of that region were appointed by Dong Zhuo - the same faction that appointed Liu Biao.

Alternatively immediately after Sun Ce's death when Sun Quan was preoccupied with solidifying his personal authority he possibly could have ventured north.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:07 pm

I get why the Guan Du advice damages Liu Biao's reputation. 1) Advice not taken always looks good in hindsight if original plan is deemed to have failed. People assume Jia Xu's advice at Chi Bi would have worked or people assume Liu Bei invading Wei rather then Wu would have been wise simply due to them being paths not taken.

2) I think even for those that have studied the era, the manner of Liu Biao's rise to power is forgotten, the camapigns we remember from LIu Biao are the defensive ones and not invading Cao Cao at Guan Du, not the acts of aggression.

3) Some big names back the plan and perhaps we all misunderstand the plan. What we remember is the potential to attack Cao Cao. What figures like Kuai Yue are actually saying is "pick a side dag nabbit. By side, we mean Cao Cao. And if you won't intervene in the war, surrender. To Cao Cao" Which is a tad less appetising for a warlord to hear. Then a man Liu Biao was worried about, Liu Bei, urges an attack which he may not 100% believe is for the benefit of Liu Biao's kingdom.

4) They say there is 100,000 soldiers. This may well be true across Jing as his entire defence force but what we tend to think is "and you can invade with 100,000 or so troops". When a lot of those will be tied down.

5) The logic for an attack seems clear. Cao Cao's forces are pulled to the north and he is bogged down in a major war, his rear is going to be vulnerable. Take those "not 100,000" troops and strike while he is weak. Look, it is unguarded, take now, what better chance will he have?

In fairness, it is as good a chance as he is going to get so perhaps he should have taken the gamble to try to seize the initiative. However it is not as good as people think, Yuan Shao tried to open up different flanks and it never worked, Wu forces attacked Chen Deng around that time and got beaten. The able Li Tong and Xun Yu would not make it easy and that is assuming Cao Cao didn't send someone like Cao Ren to deal with it
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