Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:07 pm

I would never be sarcastic about trying to solve a communication issue


I see. Sincere apologies then.

Fair enough on 1st, you and I are always going to disagree on the degree on second. I wasn't referring to Pan becuase she was murdered by the court rather then him


I dont see how Im wrong on the 2nd.

Then who were you referring to? Because last I checked we were debating official Empresses and Sun Quan only had one.

Why? I'm not saying it was the sole reason, Huan was able to get eunuch help to save himself from Liang Ji so he was always going to be grateful for that, Ling was possibly scarred by the Chen Fan incident and he was very very close personally to some of the eunuchs. But if your not fond of the gentry, as they were not, finding another faction (as well as the other attempts to build influence I mentioned) is the logical choice.

Yep, those ones. It is true it started when Ling was a kid. He was the one though that kept it up till 184 and actually went a lot harder when the gentry asked the, by then adult, Ling to ease up.


Fine. I will give you Huan. But I still doubt that he was as influential or powerful as 3k rulers when it came to political power. As for Ling, Chen Fan died because he plotted against Eunuchs so I dont see how Ling would be scarred?

Source that he went harder? Wiki states:

As the Han government became more corrupt, the people received heavier tax burdens. As Emperor Ling grew older, he not only took no remedial action, but continued to tolerate the eunuchs' corruption for the most part. A major defeat of the Han army by the Xianbei tribes in 177 further drained the imperial treasury.

In 178, Emperor Ling introduced the practice of selling political offices for money – a practice which severely damaged the Han civil service system and led to widespread corruption. The people who paid for these positions perpetuated corruption upon taking office. That was exactly what Emperor Ling had in mind: he allowed the officials to pay by instalments after taking office if they could not afford the initial amount.

During these years, Emperor Ling became interested in building imperial gardens so he ordered the commandery and principality officials throughout the Han Empire to pay their tributes to him directly, so he could use the money to finance his construction projects. This, in turn, created pressures on the officials to resort to corrupt practices so they could extract a larger tribute from their jurisdictions for the emperor. In spite of all his flaws, Emperor Ling occasionally heeded good advice from his subjects but was not consistent in doing so. His subjects often found it frustrating to try to convince him on policy issues because he only listened to them when he wanted to.

So Ling at best listened to good advice occassionally and if anything got along nice with the gentry considering that he selled positions and allowed them to pay in installments.

At worst, he just didnt care and wanted them to give him money for his fancy buildings.

Nothing about him going hard on gentry because of partisan prohibition.

So source?

but men murdering their wives seems a lot rarer then Empresses. Divorce was possible (though after Guangwu, does seem like something Emperors didn't feel was viable for them) ala Cao Cao and Lady Ding, Liu Bei and SSX, Cao Pi and Madam Ren (kinda) but isn't it telling Cao Pi killed her in the manner of an Empress?


Wrong? Most Emperor dont murder main wife because main wife usually become Empress. Not telling because inprisoning an official wife =! Killing an official Empress.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:52 pm

Han wrote:Source that he went harder? Wiki states:

As the Han government became more corrupt, the people received heavier tax burdens. As Emperor Ling grew older, he not only took no remedial action, but continued to tolerate the eunuchs' corruption for the most part. A major defeat of the Han army by the Xianbei tribes in 177 further drained the imperial treasury.

In 178, Emperor Ling introduced the practice of selling political offices for money – a practice which severely damaged the Han civil service system and led to widespread corruption. The people who paid for these positions perpetuated corruption upon taking office. That was exactly what Emperor Ling had in mind: he allowed the officials to pay by instalments after taking office if they could not afford the initial amount.

During these years, Emperor Ling became interested in building imperial gardens so he ordered the commandery and principality officials throughout the Han Empire to pay their tributes to him directly, so he could use the money to finance his construction projects. This, in turn, created pressures on the officials to resort to corrupt practices so they could extract a larger tribute from their jurisdictions for the emperor. In spite of all his flaws, Emperor Ling occasionally heeded good advice from his subjects but was not consistent in doing so. His subjects often found it frustrating to try to convince him on policy issues because he only listened to them when he wanted to.

So Ling at best listened to good advice occassionally and if anything got along nice with the gentry considering that he selled positions and allowed them to pay in installments.

At worst, he just didnt care and wanted them to give him money for his fancy buildings.

Nothing about him going hard on gentry because of partisan prohibition.

So source?


From Cambridge History of Ch’in and Han (find relevant article in this thread)

It had taken some time before Ling-ti, only thirteen years old, had fully understood what was going on. Although such a massive proscription had once been in effect in 166-167 during a similar struggle between bureaucrats and eunuchs, the new emperor did not know what the words "proscription of a clique" (tang-ku) meant. When it had been explained to him that this meant that the "clique" plotted against the state itself, the emperor approved the edict, and the Great Proscription started. In 176 an official had dared to ask for an abolition of the proscription; as a result, the proscription was widened and applied to everybody having any connection at all with the "clique."


The last sentence confirms what Dong said; that in 176 AD, when Ling was an adult the proscription was made harsher after the gentry asked for it to be lifted. By this point Ling was old enough to understand what he was doing.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:09 am

Ah I see. Find then, but I still dont believe Ling Di was as powerful or influential as the 3k Emperors.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:18 pm

I think it's fair to say they are both less and more powerful than the earlier Emperors.

The first Emperor came to power based on his military might and wielded all of his own authority. This expectation passed down to his heir but was obviously diluted over time as the Emperor became a more ceremonial figure. One, however, who held the final say yet was still expected to would delegate responsibility to officials in a way the early ones weren't.

The flip side of course is that the first member or two of a dynasty hold power based purely off of military power which always means that their position is somewhat vulnerable, if a bigger army comes along they are in trouble. Whereas for the later Han Emperors their right to rule was deeply established. Anyone wanting to challenge the Han dynasty's right to rule was fighting an uphill battle.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:48 pm

Thanks Sun Fin

Han wrote:I dont see how Im wrong on the 2nd.

Then who were you referring to? Because last I checked we were debating official Empresses and Sun Quan only had one.


I said disagree, not that you were wrong. We just have different views of what count

He had wives who he killed


Fine. I will give you Huan. But I still doubt that he was as influential or powerful as 3k rulers when it came to political power. As for Ling, Chen Fan died because he plotted against Eunuchs so I dont see how Ling would be scarred?


That's up to you.

Because of what happened on the night of the plot? I also suspect that the eunuchs version of Chen Fan's plan may have been a tad different and that is what he will have been told in the aftermath

Wrong? Most Emperor dont murder main wife because main wife usually become Empress. Not telling because inprisoning an official wife =! Killing an official Empress.


I never said all Empror's did it or even most. Not quite sure what you mean with the last part?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:31 pm

I said disagree, not that you were wrong. We just have different views of what count

He had wives who he killed


So irrelevant? Because we are discussing Empresses dying?

That's up to you.

Because of what happened on the night of the plot? I also suspect that the eunuchs version of Chen Fan's plan may have been a tad different and that is what he will have been told in the aftermath


Sure.

Could you elaborate? Wiki gives no info.

I never said all Empror's did it or even most. Not quite sure what you mean with the last part?


You said more man murdered main wife then Empress. I explained its because main wives usually end up Empresses in the first place.

You said its telling that Cao Pi prevented Zhen from becoming Empress. I disagree because preventing main wife =! Killing Empress.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:53 am

Is your sig new? :wink:

Let me paint a story: It was a dark stormy night... Ok wrong one. The ZTTJ covering that period (is down as I type this so I'm doing this with encyclopaedia and memory, I'll check when gets back and fill in on any mistakes or omissions in a new post) if you want a wider read but I'll try to do the Ling relevant only ones.

Bear in mind Emperor Ling had only been on throne five minutes, his poor (I have always wondered exactly how poor) past and suddenly he is met with the wealth and glory of being emperor, his mother left behind. He is possibly at this point unaware he was a controversial choice (he was well aware of his rival choice in adulthood).

When the eunuchs discovered the plot, it was by Zhu Yu who was quite happy for Cao Jie to die but he declared (becuase he didn't want to be genocided/slaughtered for crimes he hadn't committed) that Chen Fan and co were planning to depose Ling through the Empress Dowager. Ling was moved during the night, given a sword (they do seem to have tried to make a game of it) and then eunuchs began their counter-attack with both sides having armed troops in the palace itself.

I also suspect in the aftermath given human nature and the nature of the Dowager's treatment afterwards, the eunuchs didn't hurry to tell Ling "we misunderstood, they only wished to kill all of us. You were safe as Emperor all along" (well in the immediate future). So for Ling it was he got the throne, he got wealth and the the gentry tried to take it from him very very quickly.

So irrelevant? Because we are discussing Empresses dying?


I just don't see rulers/rule in all but name rulers killing their wives (sometimes to prevent them becoming Empress) being ok attitude of the time being disconnected to "ok to kill Empress"

You said more man murdered main wife then Empress. I explained its because main wives usually end up Empresses in the first place.

You said its telling that Cao Pi prevented Zhen from becoming Empress. I disagree because preventing main wife =! Killing Empress.


I agree with first part.

I think part of the problem here is I don't know what =! means?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
I just don't see rulers/rule in all but name rulers killing their wives (sometimes to prevent them becoming Empress) being ok attitude of the time being disconnected to "ok to kill Empress"


I agree with Han on this. I think the religious significance of the Emperor/Empress makes killing an Empress different from killing a wife who might be an Empress someday. Obviously not morally for us, but for people at the time who believed in the Han Dynasty being connected to Heaven etc.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:41 am

but actual killing a wife (unless promptly charged with murder) by husband was rare outside of that very rarefied set of figures. Displeased with wife so kill her does not seem at all common place among gentry. Divorce happened certainly but death? You seem at more risk of forced death as an Empress then wife of a grand administrator or even as powerful a figure as Jia Chong
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:16 am

Yeah, that's what I've seen in my reading too. I still agree with Han that due to the cultural significance placed on the role of a Han Emperor/Empress I don't think its fair to compare Empress' with other rulers wives. However I do recognise that rulers wives also deserve a unique category distinct from those of other gentry.
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